Frank,
This is a GM only post, Frank, why can't you stop with your Ford nonsense and just wait for the shootout? Go to a Ford post if all you want to do is talk Ford all day long and ruin the GM post. I know you will sleep a little less comfortable tonight knowing that GM has the best luxury, best luxury with heated steering wheel and ONSTAR! and will win the shootout two times in a row!!!!!!!!!!!!

One more thing Lou.

(Ford F-Series) and (Chevy Silverado + GM Sierra + Chevy Avalanche) = GM SELLS MORE TRUCKS, GM is the most powerful and beset selling truck.

Donnie, 9.9 is for the supercrew

I know that we have the right to speak what we want, but frankly I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about the GM bailout and people arguing over whether or not GM did or didn't pay back the loans. Who gives a crap!! (If anything, I think the biggest mistake the government did was bailout the banks)

Seems like whatever news that Mike Levine puts up here that has to do with GM, there's always some mention about the damn GM bailout. I think if you're diehard pickup fans, talk about 'em then. But if you want to rant on and on about the GM bailout, then go bitch and complain to some website that deals with politics.

All taxpaying Americans do have a say so in what GM does. Our money bailed them out. GM's bad decisions and bad products are the reason they were failing. Its our responsibility as taxpaying Americans to speak out when we see GM doing something stupid with our money, like this Denali dually. Why spend all this money to build a so called "luxury" truck when GM has spent MILLIONS of dollars on advertising saying that trucks shouldn't be luxurious. This hypocritical BS is a waste of money....OUR money.

Wow a lot of Jeleous Ford truck owners out there it seems.

@Snowman, I'm not a jealous Ford truck owner, I'm just someone that 1.) loves pickups and 2.) getting tired of hearing about the GM bailout.

Lou lied.

There was no GM bailout.

The loans were paid back in full and 5 years ahead of schedule.

Bobby1971 - Bob keeps saying all of the Ford guys are insecure. You definately are! I was having a great conversation with g-street. He pointed out that GM/Chevs look lower than the competition, but was 2nd best in an off-road shoot out.
I was curious, so I measured the "chin height" on 3 domestic trucks with "offroad" packages. The Ram was almost the same as the Sierra even though the Ram TRX4 looks higher. It was a very enjoyable and informative discussion with g-steet. I walked away from the keyboard with a better knowledge of GM products and respect for g-street's opinion.
I had made some very positive comments about the GM Sierra:quote-
The Sierra is a great looking truck, put the Z71/All terrain package and the GFX trim package on it and I'd say there isn't a better looking truck out there.
Put a metal bumper on it without a chin spoiler that acts like a snowplow and it would be perfect.
That doesn't look like bashing to me.
My very first post started off with:
Quote" GM...Great idea.
I'm always amazed by the number of guys who are actually willing to fork over close to $80,000 for a diesel pickup.
That doesn't sound like bashing to me.
Yes, I made a joke about the loan/bailout - but, it was a joke.
Like I told Bob in another post " I don't see it as GM bashing but more as "Bob" bashing.
You and Bob are so extreme in your fanaticism that I will (and do) go out of my way to get in your face.
If you mellow out, so will I....

I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree that Ford is the best, and say GM is the best truck somehow you're not patriotic!!!!!!!!!!!! We need to stand up and say we're Americans, GM paid back the loans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@bobby1971 - quote "we have the right to debate and disagree with anyone"

For once I have to agree with you!

'Bobby1971 - Bob keeps saying all of the Ford guys are insecure. You definately are! '

You are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lou, I want proof that Ford has more ground clearance, I want the proof that loans were not paid back in full and I want proof from you that GM does not have the biggest luxury with ONSTAR and a heated steering wheel package. That is all I have asked from you but you have failed to deliver it. For once, it is time for you to put up or shut up. Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0

F-Series < Silverado + Sierra + Avalanche

Lou, I know you will sleep a little less comfortable tonight knowing that GM SELLS MORE TRUCKS, knowing that GM is the best selling brand.

shheeeessshhhhh - actually - I will sleep a little less comfortably tonight knowing that fanatics like you exist.
Haven't you read a word I posted.
I like the looks of the GM Sierra. With the right option packages , it's the best looking truck out there (in my opinion).
I would buy one in a hearbeat(pardon the pun) if I got the best price on one.

I am not loyal to one brand. (I'll get flamed again on this comment. Ha Ha)

I like logic,
I like intelligent conversations,
I like to be entertained,
I like to learn about trucks - any brand of truck.

Howie Long (you know - the guy who you copied your haircut from) -
he doesn't like luxuries like heated steering wheels or man steps.
That should be good enough for you.

Good night.

I have to bailout..........

LMFAO

Hey Lou, Today I measured ground clearance on my Silverado, and it was 157' from the front spoiler chin. could it be that because I was on the edge of a cliff?

Great looking truck, looks alot better then the new Fords which look like they have down-syndrome...

The F-150 Raptor is nice, I will give Ford that... But i would take a Z-71 over an FX4 any-day....

An FX4 has many advantages over a Z-71. Better skid plating, electronic rear locker, better approach angle, better overall ground clearance, ECM and TCM have special programming when 4x4 is engaged, etc.

I am sick and tired of these childish posters like Lou who think the sun rises and falls on Ford and want to talk bailout every 6 seconds. Why in the hec does a bailout have to do with a truck? Why in the hec does a truck have to have a man step and 6.5 bed to be a truck? I say this to every little weanie like Lou who makes nasty remarks about GM trucks, buy a Ford if you want, buy a Dodge if you think that is the best truck for the money but remember that Consumer Digest voted the GM as the best pickup for the money. But gosh darn it, stop with the GM bashing and let people make up their own minds on what truck they want to buy without a man step, without a heating wheel without a crewcab 6.5 bed.

Thank the Lord above that we all don't drive one make of vehicle and that there is competition for your hard earned money. Do you think for one moment the people at GM think they can't build a truck that beats Fords truck????

So accept the challenge, Lou, and keep your pie hole shutabout the bailout unless you can prove to me that loans were not paid off and until you see who wins the the shootout. Please keep quiet until the shootout and I know I will. May the best most luxuyr and powerful truck win. GM Denlai. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Lou.

Frank:

F-Series < Silverado + Sierra + Avalanche

GM has a heated wheel now with the most luxury, the most power and most technology with ONSTAR and will win the shootout.

@ Phil- The FX4 and Z71 have nearly the same skid plates; under engine/trans and under the gas tank. Chevy was the first to put a locking rear differential in their trucks, 2wd or 4wd and Ford just recently adopted this practice. The approach and decent angles are nearly the same between the trucks as are ground clearances. The 4x4 engage method is nothing special and neither is the gearing or drive wheel selection. Does Ford have auto 4wheel? I don't honestly know. They have very, very similar attributes in terms of packaging. The only difference I can see it that the Ford weighs 500lbs more (disadvantage), comes with less aggressive tires (disadvantage) and has less power (disadvantage). Also it's a more expensive package to buy.

I think Ford has automatic 4x4 in the high end stuff only.
Bumper wise - the Ford is much higher than the GM or Dodge. That is an advantage if you frequently drive off-road or in winter with heavy snowfalls.
On the flip side - more air gets under the truck and decreases highway mpg. That alone could account for GM's mpg advantage.

@bobby1971 - read my posts. I have not said the Ford is much better than the GM. I also have not been slagging GM trucks.
Every truck has strong and weak points.
It is good that GM has added the Denali package to HD trucks. Ford and Dodge have excellent high end packages. GM was ignoring a very profitable segment. They should of done this instead of paying Howie Long to slag heated steering wheels.
Have a gosh, darn great day.

Perhaps he means Denial - as in denial of the fact that the US and Canadian governments with the CAW and UAW own GM.

or maybe it's the "street name" for the stuff he's been smoking!

I like the GM Sierra. The Silverado on the other hand needs a make over.

I thought the Avalanche was classified as a SUV (that got outsold by Ridgeline)

@Bobby1971 - quote "GM has a heated wheel now with the most luxury"

It's nice to know that GM has the most luxurious heated steering wheel.

@Bobby1971 - we appreciate all of your hard work and tireless devotion to GM. I bet you make Mamma Obama very proud.

@bobby1971 quote"So accept the challenge, Lou, and keep your pie hole shutabout the bailout unless you can prove to me that loans were not paid off "

Here is some light reading for you. Are you a man of your word?
It's going to be quiet for the next few months.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2009/11/gm-will-pay-back-govt-loanwith-govt-money

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/general-motors-economy-bailout-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/200384-did-gm-pay-back-its-loan-sort-of

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2010/04/gm_pushes_for_buzz_but_market_share_fizzles.html

Hey Bobby1971 and Bob - we all know that GM is number 1

Number 1 at sucking up taxpayer's money.

Lou,
I have another challenge for you.

If Ford wins the shootout, I will never post here again. If GM wins the shootout, you will never post here again. Will you accept the challenge?

@bobby1971 - that sounds like GM's tug-o-war challenge to Ford that Ford was mature enough to decline.

I am not a Ford fanboy.

I am not going to lose sleep or care who wins the shootout.

I will counter anything that sets off my BS meter.

Like I said earlier I'll mellow out if you will.

Your choice.

My current truck picks are as follows:

Small truck....... Tacoma

1/2 ton............. F150

HD................... Ram Cummins

Like I've also said in a few other posts -
I'll probably buy the brand that offers me the best deal.

"My current truck picks are as follows:
Small truck....... Tacoma
1/2 ton............. F150
HD................... Ram Cummins" - Lou

I have a bit of a problem with your picks. I think you like to give the appearance that you are unbiased but really you are biased like everyone. Now onto your pics...

Small truck...The Tracoma is NOT a small truck. It is a mid size.

HD...you're not in the market for a heavy duty so this tells us nothing.

So that leaves you with the F-150 which is not a bad choice.

Everyone has bias even you LOU. When you first came here you were a staunch Toyota man and you have softened a bit. You are learning. Not bad, Lou, not bad at all.

"but remember that Consumer Digest voted the GM as the best pickup" -bobby1971

Consumer Digest also voted the F-150 and the Ram as the best. How can all 3 trucks be the best? See here:
http://www.consumersdigest.com/award_page.html

Also, note: GM, Others Pay Consumers Digest for Right to Promote Vehicles as 'Best Buys'
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703404004575198322978785374.html?mod=wsj_share_twitter

GM can't win any of the true 3rd party endorsements outright such as Motor Trend, Truck of Texas, pickuptrucks.com, NAIAS. So GM has to resort to these third rate "endorsements" that they have to pay for. That is really shady but what one might expect from Obama Motors.

"F-Series < Silverado + Sierra + Avalanche" - bobby1971

So it takes three different brands of trucks for GM to beat one brand from Ford. GM must be very proud.

Tony A - I don't have a strong Toyota bias. There was a lot of Toyota bashing going on that did not make sense. It usually is based on USA great, and Asia bad. Read my posts on the Hyundai truck posts.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/05/hyundai-rumored-to-be-considering-fullsize-pickup-truck.html
Bias - is different than brand fanaticism. Thank you for noticing the difference.
I refer to the Tacoma as a small truck.
Notice I avoided the term compact.
The 1/2 tons have grown bigger, same goes for the HD trucks.
The Tacoma is much bigger than a true compact.
It is still a small truck when compared to the 1/2 tons out there.

You are correct that I am not in the market for a HD, but like everyone else, I am stating my opinion. If my situation changed and I needed a HD, it would be my prefered choice.

Thanks. i appreciate the feedback.

@Tony A - I need a truck that can carry 2 kids 6 & 8 in booster seats, and has shoulderbelts.
Ranger - extended cab only: doesn't fit booster seats or has shoulder belts in the back. (I traded mine off for those reasons).
Colorado/Canyon - are in the top 10 worse vehicles made.
Nissan Frontier - don't like the dealership, and don't like the truck.
Honda Ridgeline - my wife and I like it but they are more expensive than the competition.
Tacoma crewcab - good track record, and is the best truck in it's class.
Back to the Denali - I like the looks of the Sierra. They are decent trucks. I don't like the politics around GM. That is the biggest negative for me, and that did keep me from buying a new Sierra.
I would not rule out buying one in the future.
I must be getting soft in my old age;)

HEY Bobby1971 I'll accept your challenge. When GM loses, I'll never have to see your name in print, or see your prose on this site again.
You can take that to Momma Obama, and smoke it.

This is going to be a great summer.

FORD NUMBER ONE.

Challenge accepted.

Hey Lou,
Did you vote for Obama? Is that your excuse? Always making bad decisions in your life so you gotta take it out on General Motors, the Consumers Digest Best Buy??????????????

Tony A,
That is enough Ford talk from you. This is a GM only post.

@bobby1971
I thought McCain would of been a better choice! But that is way off topic.
Why do you get so upset when someone has something to say about a GM product?
Yes, there is bashing, some serious, some not. Some is in fun, some is mean spirited. It goes both ways.
Every product has areas that can be improved upon. That is not bashing.
Discussing the pros and cons of a truck is not bashing.
I've learned a lot from interacting with people on this site. My views have changed based on what I've learned.
I do not like fanaticism of any kind, be it sports, politics, religion, or trucks.
You chose to be a GM fanatic, therefore I chose to oppose you.
Simple isn't it.

@bobby1971-

I justed noticed the following post:
"HEY Bobby1971 I'll accept your challenge. When GM loses, I'll never have to see your name in print, or see your prose on this site again.
You can take that to Momma Obama, and smoke it.
This is going to be a great summer.
FORD NUMBER ONE."

You can rant all you want but,
I'm not childish enough to accept such a challenge.

Like I said earlier:

that sounds like GM's tug-o-war challenge to Ford.
Ford was mature enough to decline.

I am not a Ford fanboy.

I am not going to lose sleep or care who wins the shootout.

I will counter anything that sets off my BS meter.

What shootout would you be refering to?

HD?

1/2 ton?

Small truck?

Sales?

Financial stability?

Get a life!

ford didn't take the challenge because they know that their truck will most likely lose, they do;t want to put it in jeopardy.
Sorry Lou but Ford just wussed out PERIOD.

It would of been fun to see.

Tony is right. The Tacoma has been a mid size truck since 2005. Compact vs Small: If you look up compact in the dictionary, the definition of compact is small. Correct categories for trucks are compact, midsize and full size. Ranger is only small/compact truck left unless you go used and buy a S10 or Tacoma pre 2005.

We are splitting hairs here.
I use the term "small" because compact and mid-size are lumped together in formal comparisons, and I compare compact versus midsize, and so does almost everyone else.
The first Ranger I bought in 1984 was considered "mid-size" as the compacts were a tad smaller.
The definition of compact is : closely and firmly packed or put together; dense; solid; taking little space. Small probably fits the description as well.
I suspect that Tony is using the term "compact" vs midsize because the Ranger is the smallest of the "small" trucks, and he is a Ford fan. I like the Ranger, but it does not have a crew cab. It doesnot fit my needs.
If it makes you happy I won't mention the Ranger and only talk about midsize.
There have been guys saying that "older" 1/2 tons were not much bigger than the current Tacoma, and the new full size trucks keep getting bigger.
1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton pickup terminology is antiquated and no longer fits the cargo/towing capacities of current pickups. Compact and midsize trucks have evolved and do not fit traditional definitions either.

Case in point - the current crop of HD "1 tons" can tow 24,000 pounds or more. That was the exclusive domain of commercial tractor/trailer rigs.

I suspect that Tony is using the term "compact" vs midsize because the Ranger is the smallest of the "small" trucks, and he is a Ford fan. I like the Ranger, but it does not have a crew cab. It doesnot fit my needs. - Lou

Come on. Like you, I am not a fan of anything. I am fair and balanced. I guess Wikipedia is a Ford fan now too?

Predecessor Toyota pickup
Tacoma
Class Compact pickup truck (1995-2004)
Mid-size pickup truck (2005-present)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Tacoma

"Since then, all of its competitors from the Nissan Frontier to the Toyota Tacoma have been redesigned and enlarged towards the mid-size market, leaving the Ranger the only compact truck on the market."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger

I know it is hard to keep up with this stuff, it is for me. But the Tacoma is a mid size model now and has been for 5 years now, not just this year only.

It is okay that you are not in the market for a Ranger. You don't have to list it as your favorite. But if it is the only one? Remember you are not in the market for a Heavy Duty but you picked it among your list.

"Case in point - the current crop of HD "1 tons" can tow 24,000 pounds or more. That was the exclusive domain of commercial tractor/trailer rigs."

We are talking about the size, not towing capabilities. And I'm pretty sure only the Ford F-450 can tow 24,000.

Mark,
Thank you. I am not a fan of the Ranger but if I was giving out picks for a small truck, I would have to pick the Ranger because that is the only small truck and it gives you what you want from a full-size pickup in a compact truck that’s priced much less than a full size.

People don't want to think that the that mid-size trucks are not compact trucks anymore because the compact size advantage is gone, (Tacoma double cab is just under 19' long and a Silverado crewcab is just about 19' long) and the price tag savings are gone - for instance a popular mid-size double cab starts at $26,000. with no options. That is full-size truck pricing. Pick what you need. Pick what works for you. But don't pick your nose.

Lou writes, 'I suspect that Tony is using the term "compact" vs midsize because the Ranger is the smallest of the "small" trucks, and he is a Ford fan.'

There Lou goese again calling someone who disagrees with him a fanboy. I am sick and tired of this when you debate and disagree with Lou somehow you are a fan. When Lou goes off on a Toyota rant or a Ford rant or an anti GM rant I call him a fan and he gets so defensive and says he cannot be one. Lou says has no bias just giving out the facts and his preference. But the fact is bias is based on facts and preference. You are biased against Onstar, you are biased against the Silverado, you are biased against GM paying back the loans, biased against luxury, biased against Howie Long, biased against Fiat and Italy owned Rams, biased with Toyota doing no wrong, biased, biased. Your BS meter? What a joke! I am done with Lou and will no longer respond to his personal attacks gainst me or GM or the bailouts and I am sorry to have participated in this thread.

@Tony - my apologies. I've been engaged in a "war of words" with another poster and unfortunately that debate has me on edge.
Thank you for your input.
Your posts have been well thought out, and have had valid, unbiased links to back up your points.
I've enjoyed our conversation, and look foreward to seeing your posts in the future.
Again... my apologies.

@Tony - It is too bad that the Ranger will be killed off. A crrewcab variant would be a good seller.
You've also pointed out that the midsize trucks are very close to full size in dimensions as well as cost. That is what is killing mid to compact sales. Why buy a mid size when a 1/2 ton costs almost the same, and has similar fuel economy.
In the Ranger's case it does well for an extremely old platform.
On the other end of the scale, the HD pickups have encroached into commercial truck territory. Some bloggers have expressed concerns because in many jurisdictions, a commercial licence is not required. The Denali and other high end duallies are pushing $80,000 which also is in the commercial truck price range. I am amazed by the number of high end 1 ton trucks out there. GM is wise to tap into that market.

Tony,
You are correct on the Tacoma Crew Cab almost being like a full size. It is definitely not a small pickup by any means. Pickuptrucks.com has also noted that issue with the Tacoma crew cab.

"Things We Don't Like:
Long Box Tacoma Crew Cab almost as big as a full-size pickup"
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/toyota/tacoma/2010/

@Mark - the auto industry has "lost it's way" when it comes to the compact truck market. Obviously there is a market. The Ranger still sells. Introduce a crewcab with a 5 ft. box and it would sell as much as the Tacoma.
It will be interesting to see what Ford has up it's sleeve. They claim they have an F150 that will replace the Ranger.
I think that part of the reason Ford wants to end the Ranger is to push sales of the Transit Connect.
I need a truck. I'm tired of my van smelling like my 2 wet labrador retrievers;)

Just a general comment. I think it is odd when Ford and Dodge guys blast GM for all the "flaws" in design that they claim GM trucks have. The majority of the truck-buying population must find something they like with GM trucks b/c year after year GM trucks (Chevrolet + GMC) continue to outsell Ford and Dodge. Even with all the ground Ford has gained by not taking government money (eventhough they borrowed $18 billion in Nov. 2006 to prevent having to file bankruptcy), GM still outsold them by about 65,000 units in 2009.

Now Ford is claiming to have the most powerful diesel and claiming most horsepower and torque in class. However, what you have to read the fine print to see is that Ford is comparing their new 2011 diesel to the 2010 GM and Dodge diesel. Here are the real numbers:
Duramax: 397 / 765
Ford: 390 / 735
Cummins: 350 / 650

PS Dodge guys: If these are the power numbers you get by using a less efficient, more polluting engine, then no thanks...I'll keep the clean emissions, better fuel economy, and 10-12% more power!

Although, the numbers on paper really don't mean anything. The real truth comes when you put the whole package together and let all three compete pulling the same loads on the same day under the same conditions side-by-side. Until someone does this under truly controlled conditions the debate and name calling will continue. Until then we should just all realize that if 350 hp and 650 lb./ft. (the worst of the three) aren't enough to pull what you have then you need a Freightliner or a Peterbilt and not a pick-up! So buy the one that you like to drive the best and the one you can afford for what you want.

Sorry for the long post...it will be my first and last...these message boards crack me up...half of you can't even complete a gramatically correct sentence.

alright all you guys talking like you actually know something... I drive 3500 trucks for a living. Fords, Chevy's and dodges my company has all three and the truth is i have to reach mountain tops in the middle of nowhere all over the country, i drive about 150,000 miles a year and take these trucks loaded down with service boxes that weigh about 15,000 pounds. and while fords make pretty good power they SUCK! if you really put the trucks to the test you will find that some creature comforts are nice in there own way for each brand the fords spend more time in the shop than any of the rest. PERIOD therefore dont buy one. if you want a truck that acts like a car then buy a car Trucks are Trucks not for nancy a** girls wanting heated wheels and pretty chrome