" . . . form a joint venture with . . . Navistar International . . ."
After Ford, maybe now it's GM's turn in the barrel!

I'd like to see GM do something soon so Ford will fix the screwed up weight capacity numbers on the 2011 F-450.

As an employee of a GMC medium duty dealership, I would love to have the product back. But I also know that GM does not know or care about the meduim duty market and will not be sucessful in anything above the class 4 truck. It is unfortunate because the quality is there just not the knowledge or drive to succeed. I would be very surprised to see any GM product in the 6-8 classes.

Here's a novel idea. Since they couldn't find a buyer for the medium-duty line, they should still own it & the factory. Call back the workers who were laid off. Design a new fiberglass nose & hood ( ala Ford's Super Duty & F-series medium duty & International's medium duties ) Add a couple new engine & tranny combos. Then BAM! They're back in the medium duty business. Why do they need to make a deal with someone else & cost more American jobs?

Gregor, IIRC the weight ratings of the F450 only appear messed up because the general consumer ones are all 4X4 and loaded to the roof with options. Commercial F450's have higher ratings. Go check out the ratings on an 4X4 F350 dually loaded with the same options as an F450 and the F450 is higher rated. In general, the max rating numbers for the other models are on stripped regular cab trucks. This applies to all manufacturers. You aren't going to get a King Ranch 4X4 crewcab with the highest rated payload or towing numbers advertised.

GM made a great medium duty truck. I sold over a 1000 class 6,7 and 8's over the years to municipalities. My customers are very upset that GM medium duty is no longer in business. GM needs to wake up. Ford, Freightliner and INTL are benefiting from GM's stupidity.

David, How many years did it take you to sell that many trucks? There in lies the problem for GM. Numbers. Ford also dropped a bomb on them when they offered an off the rack F450 with a bed fo the general public to purchase. Buyer ready and really no larger than the F350 in size so it doesn't look like you are driving a wannabe 18 bobtail 18 wheeler.

Sterling got out of the truck business last year,maybe GM could buy Sterling...?? Wouldnt that be a kick....buy Sterling which at one time was Ford's F600/700/800 lineup until they sold to Sterling! Sorta reminds one of Chrysler buying British Sunbeam,whose Tiger had a Ford 289 V8 under the hood...

Is the medium truck market big enough for GM corp?

It is obvious that they did not think things through.

It's obvious why they went broke - BAD MANAGEMENT!

IIRC since about 1997 Sterling was nothing more than rebadged Dodges and Frieghtliners sold under the Chrysler umbrella. Not sure there is anything to buy but the name.

Well duh !!!

Keith, I agree. But when you look at the numbers, they rated the F-450 pickup to tow a heavy fiver but didn't give it enough payload to handle the typical pin weight (on paper, anyways).
It will end up being a one-upmanship numbers game for payload and towing capacity in the 450/4500 and 550/5500 series trucks just like it is for the horsepower and torque. Ford will have to rethink their strategy when GM gets back in the game and the F-450's payload capacities will jump by 1500 lb across the board (due to marketing, not engineering).
OTOH, if it takes until 2012 and Ford and GM both agree to abide by the new SAE towing standard, . . .
Oh, and "appearances" are everything nowadays. ;-)

y feel more safe have a medium truck to pull 24.000 especially to brake ,and control compare to a pickup..

Gre,

F450 crewcab payload is 5,460 pounds. 15% of 24,400 pound max towing is 3,660 pounds well within the payload capability of a F-450.

Agreed, GM needs to be back in that business. While Ford might have had a more useful product in the F-450 and 550 than the GM 4500 and 5500, the Topkick and Kodiak 6500/7500/8500 were far better than Ford's International built 650 and 750. With the economy being what it is at the moment, it is a good time for GM to take a 'breather' from commercial trucks. I think some surprises are in store, wait and watch.

Dave, I've got a 18,700 lb fiver with a pin weight of 3900 lbs. My experience is that a fiver has 20% or more of the weight on the pin. 20% of 24,400 is 4880, leaving 1092 lbs.
Add driver, wife, dogs, beer cooler (full), fifth wheel hitch, fuel, oil, coolant, etc, etc. and you are pushing the limits of the F-450. If one wanted to add an in-bed fuel tank for an extra 50 gallons, there's no allowance in the weight limits.
What was the GVWR on a similarly equipped 2011 F-350? ;-)

Why won't GM just do like Ford does and have 2 seperate truck classes? Have the 1500 series with independent front suspension and high dollar options and a little smaller in size. Then have the 25,35,4500 + series with a solid beam axle, a higher tucked up frame, slightly larger in size and more 'commercial' option type packages. They don't need a big Kodiak type truck again. Do it in house and go head to head with Ford.

Their 1500 sales are hurting simply because their 1500 isn't competitive with Ford or Ram right now in styling or interior. I'm sure the lack of a Super Duty truck does indeed hurt. Most truck guys and companies tend to stick with one brand and become very loyal. Unfortunately for GM, these trucks sales trickle down into car sales as well at home and even in business. People will just buy all Fords at the same dealer.

The decision for GM trucks to go 'light duty' in the early 1990's needs to be reversed immediately. They need to get serious about building world class 'like a rock' trucks again. I'm not sure that GM's Mark Reuss understands this? He's a car guy not a truck guy.

GM is a great company , great quality trucks and used to have the best medium duty trucks. Love GM, if they need more money we should hand it over happily, at least it will go to a good product. Best tax money i ever spent. If it weren't for GM most would be sad. GO GM GO. YAY

Dave, I've got a 18,700 lb fiver with a pin weight of 3900 lbs. My experience is that a fiver has 20% or more of the weight on the pin. 20% of 24,400 is 4880, leaving 1092 lbs.
Add driver, wife, dogs, beer cooler (full), fifth wheel hitch, fuel, oil, coolant, etc, etc. and you are pushing the limits of the F-450. If one wanted to add an in-bed fuel tank for an extra 50 gallons, there's no allowance in the weight limits.

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Excuse me. 1) You have to pick one weight or the other. You can't say you have an 18k trailer and use the 24k weight to make your argument. That is unfair and inaccurate. 2) You cannot say someone will want to tow 24,400 lbs and then want to add more weight to it. The rating is clearly for everything combined.

If someone has a 24,400 trailer, they are CLEARLY pushing the limits by starting with a trailer of 24,400 lbs and the max is 24,400. Duh! The point is the total weigh can go UP TO 24,400 LBS. They don't mean start with a trailer of 24,400 lbs and add a bunch cargo and people to it as you claim. The max tow rating is for everything combined. Even if you tow the max 24,400 (which would be very strange figure) and use the 20%, the payload is still ok.

Now, going with your trailer.

18,700 lbs x 20% = 3740

1720 lbs remaining.

GM's affiliated companies globally do not make a proper Medium Truck. GM has been downsizing in the Heavy Vehicle sector for years. Going from Class 8's to now pickups.
Toyota, Mercedes, Hyundai, VW, Fiat and Renault have affiliates that or build the full ranges themselves. Renault sold their heavy truck division to Volvo. Sterling formerly Ford Hevy Trucks was sold to Daimler(Mercedes) who has terminated the brand.

Dave - You have a few correct points but are way off on the last part. Pin weight counts against payload. As does the install of the 5th wheel hitch. That being said you are correct that Gregor would have close to 2,000lbs of payload remaining towing his 5th wheel with the 2011 F450.

Gregor - Dave is correct, max tow is max tow. You do not go buy a tow vehicle that has a max tow rating at almost dead on the trailer it will be towing. If I were towing 24,000lbs I would be looking at at MDT that had an even higher tow rating. Personally I use an 80% rule. My trailers max GVWR will not exceed 80% or so of my truck tow rating. BTW what are you towing your 5er with now? Chances are it isn't a 1 ton dually if even the 2011 F450 isn't enough truck. Unless it is a previous MY F450 or an MDT you are basically stating the new F450 won't work for you, but you are currently towing with a vehicle that is overloaded anyhow.

Dave, Ford says max tow is 24,400 GROSS trailer weight - we both agree that's with the trailer loaded up and ready to go. 20% pin weight is 4880.
F-450 crewcab max payload 5460 as noted above. Remaining payload for the truck is 580 lbs.
You have to add to the truck's payload a driver (180 lbs), a fiver hitch (150 lbs), wife (120 lbs), the Black Lab (100 lbs) and the beer cooler (??? lbs) and fuel and other necessary liquids (300 lbs).

I pointed out my current weights as an example that the pin weight on a fiver is not 15%, it's closer to 20% and may go as high as 25% (which, BTW would be 6100 lbs on a 24,400 trailer and over the payload of the 2011 F-450).

Keith, To answer you question about my rig, 2006 F-350 KR DRW, CC 4x4 and a 2007 triple axle Nuwa Champagne 37CKRD with disk brakes. I'm within all weight specs except GCWR. I was considering trading for a heavier trailer, but the 2011 F-450 in it's current specs won't cut it (and I know my current F-350 won't do it either).

All manufacturers forget to mention that a 20,000 lb capacity steel trailer (with tandem 10k duals) weighs approximately 7,000 lbs empty. Therefore the load capacity is roughly 13,000 lbs, most larger skid steers, mini trackhoes, small bulldozers, or tractors weigh more than 13k lbs. If you choose to go up to a 24k lbs capacity trailer then you would still be overloaded because small bulldozers and trackhoes weigh 18K to 22Klbs and the trailer would have to built heavier to handle the increased loads. Aluminumtrialers aloow you to carry more weight, but even the F-450 couldn't handle that amount of weight regularly. There is only way to safely carry that much weight which is to purchase a class 4- 6 truck which GM no longer builds.
GM Please bring back the Medium duties with class 4-6 being sized closer to the new 3500hd. Give them a wider front axle (IFS is great large firetucks and cranetrucks use it- but also offer a solid axle), standard factory air suspension (smoother ride while maintaining weight capacity), a heavier frame (straight frame ?), bigger brakes , an allison 3000+ series tranny, an 8.1L Duramax V-8 (based off of the new 4.5L Duramax), a gas engine option, and a better cooling system. That would make an incredible medium duty truck that would sell like crazy!

A 4-wheel steering option along with 4wd (must have option) would also be great.

Dave, Ford says max tow is 24,400 GROSS trailer weight - we both agree that's with the trailer loaded up and ready to go. 20% pin weight is 4880.
F-450 crewcab max payload 5460 as noted above. Remaining payload for the truck is 580 lbs.
You have to add to the truck's payload a driver (180 lbs), a fiver hitch (150 lbs), wife (120 lbs), the Black Lab (100 lbs) and the beer cooler (??? lbs) and fuel and other necessary liquids (300 lbs). - Greg

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Every manufacturer states that the max weight includes the cargo, people, etc. It is also common sense.

Kingpin weight is usually anywhere from 12 to 20%. If it is too high, you would have figured this out by reading the manufacturer's trailer weight and their stated pin weight before buying said trailer or truck and buy accordingly.

Again, you do not have to add your wife, cargo, etc to the 24,400. That would already be in the 24,400. This is not only what they say in the manual and everywhere else, but also common sense.

Stop with your nonsense or Lou will be forced to debate you on this topic because I am done. Have a nice day.

Dave, You are 100% wrong on your tow rating and payload comments. Look in your owners manual or door jam on the truck. Payload rating is calculated with fluids and driver and sometimes fuel. That is it. The only vehicle I have seen accomodate passengers into the figure is vans. Look it up. Usually the driver is spec'd out to 160lbs. Payload is also diminished by add ons like running boards, brush guards, extra fuel tanks, 5er hitches, winches, cab configuration and so on. Hence my comment on the F450 having a lower max payload as if it is purchased as a normal truck with bed, it is only offered in crew cab fully loaded versions. I am sure one could order an F450 in commercial trim as a chassis cab and get a higher payload out of it. You can also go to an F550 as well, but once again it will be a chassis cab.

READ YOUR OWNERS MANUAL ON PAYLOAD AND TOWING!! It is all right there.

@ Dave - funny. I'll bow out of this debate. I haven't operated any heavy trucks since I was a kid driving gravel trucks.

Keith,
Greg stated that when you tow a 24,400 load you have to add the people and cargo to the 24,400.

What Greg said there is 100% false!

Dave said if you are already at the maximum weight of 24,400 lbs, that means you are not to include any cargo as you are already at the max weight! Ford does allow for a 150 lb driver.

You are correct that people and cargo reduce the payload rating but that is not what Dave was talking about.

What Dave said is 100% correct. You can also read it on Ford's site or any vehicle site for that matter: maximum trailer tow weight assumes you are towing no cargo.

Why? Because you are already at the max. You don't have to be operating any heavy trucks to know this. This is all simple logic.

See here on page 4:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/assets/pdf/towing/10FLMrvSUPERDUTYsep09.pdf

If you are towing the max.......this assumes you are towing no cargo.....why? because you are at the max already......simple logic....if you have more than a 150 lb person or additional cargo that you want to add to the 24,400 and thus go over the max tow rating.......you must lighten you load by at least that amount.

Dave is 100% correct. Simple logic prevails again.

Dave, You are 100% wrong on your tow rating and payload comments. Look in your owners manual or door jam on the truck. Payload rating is calculated with fluids and driver and sometimes fuel. That is it. - Keith

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You just said the same thing I said but in a different way.

This is the last time I will explain this because I have other things to do than to argue about this.

The guy here stated he would not have enough payload if he was towing his 18k trailer. I proved this to be false with calculations above. Then he stated he would not have enough payload for the 24,400 load. I proved this to be false. I also said he could check the trailer or truck limits and buy accordingly before buying said trailer or truck.

Finally, he said he would not have enough payload if he was towing a 24,4000 lb load + the additional weight of his entire family, dogs, food, cargo, etc and that it was "pushing the limits." At that point, I was like, duh, you already pushed the limit by starting at the limit. Then you want to add all of this extra stuff to it? I told him that was not how it works. Ford states this in their literature. The total weight can be up to 24,400, you can't start there and go over it.

In a 24,400 load and a 20% kingpin weight, you still have 600 lbs to spare + an additional 150 lbs for the driver, so it is close to 750 lbs remaining payload. Does this push the limits? Yes, but you pushed it yourself by doing the max tow limit. Is it enough extra payload for a couple drivers and some extra cargo. Clearly it is. What if you and your wife is really fat or are over the 750? You need to lighten the load. Is it enough payload for most people? Yes. If not? Then you would investigate this before buying. His own trailer would have 1700 lbs extra payload with a 20% kingpin which is plenty for two people, beers, a dog and whatever else he was asking about.

I see where you guys are coming from now.
If I lower the trailer weight so I can have payload, it's still sitting on the truck frame.
If I move 1400 from trailer to truck so the trailer is 23000, and I'm still at 24400 total cargo, now I've got 4600 pin and 1400. Put it in the truck and I've got 4600+1400=6000. OOPS! That won't work either, will it.
It's all a numbers game, fellers. ;-)

Great comments guys. Just an aside. My gooseneck trailer spec tag says 14,000 gross cap. Has 2-5,200 lb axles and carries rest on the ball.
Anyway most work trucks are way overloaded. Apparently specs are a mere suggestion. If it wasn't for those scale boys; my big trucks(and everyone else's)would always be overloaded.
Does anybody remember the tiny Toyota pickups labeled "One Ton" from 30 or so years ago. Saw some actually tried it.

How did a discussion about medium duty commercial trucks end up an arguement about towing with pickup trucks?

If GM was smart, they would partner with Roger Penske who has one of the largest truck fleets in the country. He knows the truck business better then anyone.

I see where you guys are coming from now.
If I lower the trailer weight so I can have payload, it's still sitting on the truck frame.
If I move 1400 from trailer to truck so the trailer is 23000, and I'm still at 24400 total cargo, now I've got 4600 pin and 1400. Put it in the truck and I've got 4600+1400=6000. OOPS! That won't work either, will it.
It's all a numbers game, fellers. ;-)
Posted by Gregor
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Yes, it won't work because you are doing it wrong!

The max ratings of ALL manufacturers state that if you are at the max weight (here it is 24,400 lbs) you cannot have any cargo in the bed.

It is not a game because you would know this before you bought the truck and buy accordingly.

24,400 in the trailer x a max pin weight of 20% = 4800 lbs It works like they said it would.

If you do not want to do it this way, you need to stop towing the max or buy a different trailer with a lower pin weight.

It is simple to understand.

who cares about weight ratings ive got scale tickets from the sawmill 68000 lbs 2007 chevrolet duramax 3500 hd 6 inch lift with 35s all stock engine and trans 373gear and no problem running 70mph and the truck doesnt squat and my ford will not do it . i pull this weight at least three times a week and now have 100k on it and no problems cant say that for my ford