Frank,

Your right, Im wrong. Ford is the only company that designs and builds cars without government money. Wink.

Keith,

Thanks for your service. Please stop by Hill, or Kirtland.....You will see quite a few Fords. I am aircraft maintenance, and I realize they are all Chevy Box vans....Im just saying that GSA supplies the vehicles and you get what you get. In Germany, they buy Renaults, Mercedes and Volkswagons too.....

@topdog - thanks for the link.

Did you read the actual story?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67458H20100805

Factbox: No bailout, but Ford sees government benefits

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co has reaped a consumer, political and market bounce from not taking a U.S. government bailout to help restructure in 2009, unlike rivals General Motors Co and Chrysler.

It helps sum up the difference between a bailout ,or loans, or incentives.

@Top Dog,

That was an utter failure. Did you not even read the article?

Are you sure your name is not Bob?

TY foryour service as well Top Dog. I am im MXG as well. I am in Metals Tech. Been to Hill for a conference. Nice place. I know all about GSA LOL. I am stuck dealing with them alot as a secondary duty.

I wonder if Nissan Frontier sales are eating into Tacoma sales?
The Frontier is the only compact that saw an increase in sales.
Ranger sales are down - are Ranger buyers waiting for the new F150 engines?
It looks like we will see another year where Toyota (Tacoma and Tundra) combined sales will be higher than Ram (1500 to 4500, and Dakota) combined sales.
Not good for Ram.

Ranger sales went crazy during cash for clunkers. It will be interesting to see what sales do next month when we are not comparing them to the clunkers month.

Ram trucks are like Rodney Dangerfield. They get no respect.

Frank,

Yes I did read the article. This is why I posted the link. Apparently you didn't. "Ford received approval for $5.9 billion in Energy Department loans to transform factories in five states to produce more fuel-efficient vehicles. Roughly $400 million of that money was spent on retooling the Chicago plant visited by President Barack Obama on Thursday."

But once again, your right, Ford doesn't use Government money. Wink.

@Top Dog,

That is not a bailout.

Yes it is.

Also, take out the fleet numbers for Ford, and you will see this list turned upside down....I know for a fact that fleets buys a ton of Fords, since Ford is the cheapest.

Okay, just a little math here according to 2009 half-ton sales (http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/11/ford-and-dodge-trucks-gain-market-share-in-2009.html). C-GM=Chevy + GMC (for those who insist on them being as one. That's not my opinion, just there for comparison for the GM guys.)

...........Retail only.......Retail+Fleet.............Retail% / Fleet%
Ford......164,275.............202,422....................81 / 19
Chevy...147,368.............174,199....................85 / 15
GMC.......56,858...............61,774....................92 / 8
C-GM....204,226..............235,973...................87 / 13

......................................(2008)......................................

Ford......178,770..............244,099....................73 / 27
Chevy...230,635..............270,084....................85 / 15
GMC.......88,736................98,804....................90 / 10
C-GM.....319,371.............368,888....................87 / 13

.........................(2008/2009 sales difference).....................

Ford.......-14,495..............-41,677..................+8 / -8
Chevy....-83,267..............-95,885....................0 / 0
GMC.......-31,878.............-37,030...................-2 / +2
C-GM....-115,445.............-132,915...................0 / 0

Taking the average percentage of 1/2 ton to full line up (1/2 + HD's) for 2008 & 2009. you get this.

.............................(est. 2010 1/2 ton sales).......................

...........# of 1/2 tons...........# of HD's..........1/2 ton %

.......(remember based on average of 2008 & 2009 sales).....

Ford..........275,797..............112,649...............71%
Chevy.......170,759................64,771...............72.5%
GMC...........60,952................18,206...............77%
C-Gm........232,869................81,819...............74%

Looks like a definitive win for Ford any way you slice it! That wasn't the case just a couple years ago. I didn't include Dodge as the arguments of sales are usually between Ford and GM.

Mike,
Now, take out the fleet numbers, and see what the difference is. I know the government buys a ton of Fords, since their the cheapest.

Not good for Ford.

Go Ram. Ram sells more. Go Chevy.

Lou,
What percentage of Ram sales were fleet? None of these articles say what fleet sales were. Ram had an 8% increase when Ford only had 4%. Once again Ram is the truck leader and increased the most!

@Mad dog - A sale is a sale. If Ford is dumping trucks on the fleet market why are they making profits? There isn't a huge difference in fleet sales.
* Chrysler: 39%
* Ford: 35%
* GM: 31%
* Hyundai-Kia: 16%
* Nissan: 15%
* Toyota: 9%
* Honda: 2%
Source....Autosavant.com

1st - guys argued that combined Sierra/Silverado sales beat Ford. Ford sales now beat both.
2nd - it was guys saying that Ford combined all their trucks.
This site showed that sales only included trucks up to the F450. Same with Dodge sales - they include sales up to 4500.
That story killed that argument.

3rd - now it's the fleet queen argument.

The other manufactures recieved the same "green" incentives. A financial incentive is not a bailout.

A boat is bailed out of water as it sinks.
That what happened to GM and Chrysler.
Chrysler was sinking but GM by all financial definitions was "sunk".
A complete ship wreck.

Financial experts had said that GM was so broke that they could not financially afford to go through the bankrupsy process. It is pathetic to think that the world's biggest car company was too broke to survive bankruptsy protection.

Do some research and you'll see what I mean.

So Ford gets money but its not a bailout. Gm and Chrysler get money and it is a bailout. Why is this? Because without that money Gm and Chrysler most likely would not exist anymore. But one has to wonder what Fords current position would be if they hadn`t gotten any money. Would we be seeing new engines in most of thier vehicles? Would we be seeing the hybrids? New in house diesel? I guess we will never know but I doubt they would be in the same rosy position that they are in. And to those who think GM and Chrysler should have been left to die: it would not be a good thing for Ford to have a monopoly in the HD segment. Competition drives innovation.

Lou and Frank are Ford lovers....so nothing anybody says will change their mind. ONLY GM AND DODGE get government money. Ford gets magic money from some other government..WINK.

Bottom line is this.....Why does the government give any of them money? They don't give any to you or I, only banks and businesses. The government already gives them money by buying their vehciles as fleet use...That should be enough.

Keith, i am not at all calling anyone out, but i would like to read the PUTC article about the sell numbers of 1/2 ton trucks per month. i know toyota is NOT the highest selling 1/2 ton out there. i would just like to see a more fair comparison of 1/2 sells for my information. i looked all the way back to April 2010 and could not find such an article....please help me find the article..... thanks.

Toyotaman - Search this site.

Mad Dog - Mike posted the stats for fleet and retail sales for 2009. Ford won both retail and combined sales. How can they be padding numbers with fleet sales if they beat Chevy on retail sales as well by almost 20k units?

I live in area where recreational fishing supports a large part of the economy. This MADDOG/TOPDOG guy is an excellent fisherman. he makes no sense, keeps posting, and people keep responding??
Must be a teenager with nothing to do buy go on this site and show how uninteligent he is?

@ Jordan L - depends on the reason why the government is doling out cash. The post maddog linked was talking about "incentives" for green vehicles. The government wants green cars so they get the car companies to make them by cash handouts. Governments give out low interest loans for all sorts of other reasons as well.

The headline stated: quote"Factbox: No bailout, but Ford sees government benefits".

Like I said before - Chrysler and GM needed government cash to survive. GM would of died without a government bailout.
Chrysler is a much smaller company - somebody would of been able to buy them out. People don't seem to care as much about the Chrysler bailout.
I'm not sure why.
Perhaps it is because they've gone down this path before or the preception of being screwed by DaimlerBenz.
Perhaps it is as simple as Chrysler is seen as the underdog needing help whereas GM was the TopDog who fell due to their own stupidity.

Ford has gotten cash to build green vehicles. It helps their bottom line - no doubt about that.
Ford has gotten money from the government for other reasons - that also is a given.
It helps Ford - no doubt about that.

Ford did go to Washington and look at the bailout package.
Ford decided that it was the wrong thing to do.
Ford was stable enough not to need the bailout offered to them.
Ford didn't need a bailout to survive ie. stay alive.

A bailout is to keep a company alive.

@Lou,

Don't waste your time. Honestly, if these people can distinguish the diffrence then it isn't even worth mentioning.

Let's waste our time reading up on how good Ford trucks are.

@maddog / topdog
can u follow this analogy?

An easy to understand comparison of bailout/bankruptcy to borrowing and helping yourself out.

Three boats, called Fud, Chuv, & Dudg, each owned by a group of investors, set sail on a great trip. Their cargo is all the same—it is “jobs” Now these are almost identical rather shaky boats. A few miles into the trip, the captain of the Fud realizes things are going to get really bad with the weather, the condition of the boat, paying the crew, etc. He discusses with the investors that they should go farther into debt and try and fix things for the anticipated bad times ahead. The investors agree and go deep in debt to keep their ship & cargo afloat. They fix up their boat and set some funds aside to pay the crew later
.
The captains of the Chuv & Dudg ignore the signs of bad weather, leaky boats, etc and just sail on thinking everything will look after itself. Their boats eventually start to sink, the government says—here, let them sink, move your cargo to this new boat that we the taxpayers will give you, and if you ever earn money-you can pay us back. The original investors lost their investment as the boats sank.

The Fud soldiered on, never sank, the investors never lost their money, they had a lot of debt to still contend with but they continued to earn from their original investment as more customers wanted to use their boat for business as they felt was deserved business than the others with their new debt free boats.

No one knows how many of these 3 boats will still be floating & working in the future but most would bet al least one of them will be.

@ bob again - you are going to ruin the hard earned reputation of the Bobsie boy continuum with logical, understandable posts.

@ Frank - I think I'll waste my time parking next to some Chev guys and deploy the man step to the 6.5 foot box on the 2010 F150 SuperCrew I just bought.

Howie Long can kiss my power seats or he can Sync me a message as to how well OnStar works.

@Lou - Did you JUST buy a 2010 or are you joshing us? Should have waited for the 2011. The order guides are out now...
http://www.f150online.com/forums/2009-2010-f-150-105/

@Joe

Lou is pulling your leg! He drives a Chevy van and will buy a 2011 Chevy Silverado which by the way won Consumer's Digest Best Buy award! Does the 2011 F150 have Onstar yet? Nope. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Joe.

Chevrolet Wins Most 2010 Consumer Digest Best Buy Awards

http://www.prleap.com/pr/152805

Ron Carter Chevy proudly announces that their lineup of Chevrolet cars and trucks, which they sell in the greater Houston Texas metropolitan areas, won more 2010 Consumer Digest Best Buy Awards than any other automotive brand. Ron Carter Houston Chevrolet is proud of the recognition given to the Chevy brand by Consumer Digest.

The Chevrolet Camaro, Corvette, Equinox, Malibu, Silverado, Tahoe, and Traverse all were awarded Consumer Digest’s "Automotive Best Buy" winners. "It is a huge honor to be a part of the award-winning Chevrolet brand," says Michael Nimr, the Internet Manager at Ron Carter Houston Chevrolet. "These vehicles represent the quality and value of the Chevy brand."

In 2010, Consumer’s Digest awarded their Best Buy Award to roughly 40 new car models sold in the North American consumer market. The criteria that Consumer’s Digest uses are "based on a vehicle’s purchase price and ownership costs relative to subjective factors like comfort, performance, styling and utility. By this measure, the least expensive cars are not necessarily Best Buys, nor are the best-performing and costliest models automatically given the nod." Since Chevrolet makes quality cars and trucks and sells them through their Houston auto dealers at reasonable prices, it’s not a surprise that Chevy won more awards than other manufacturers.

@Lou

You left your...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGI8IRXRqpo

@Lou

Chevrolet Silverado 1500 - What the Auto Press Says

The 2011 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 ranks 1 out of 8 Full Size Pickup Trucks. This ranking is based on our analysis of 66 published reviews and test drives of the Chevrolet Silverado 1500, and our analysis of reliability and safety data.

Even though competitors offer more innovative interior features and storage solutions, the 2011 Chevrolet Silverado continues to impress reviewers with its combination of practicality and livability.

The Ford F-150 and Dodge Ram are the main competition for the Silverado. Though they were both recently redesigned, car reviewers say the Silverado still has what it takes to compete with them. Car and Driver says the Silverado (and its corporate cousin, the GMC Sierra) "continue to be a class act in this highly competitive arena," because they " still offer outstanding engine choices and features galore."

While the Silverado hangs on as a class leader, the Ford and Dodge trucks offer some features the Chevy just doesn't have. The F-150 offers features like Ford's SYNC infotainment system and its Work Solutions system, which reviewers think could be a big help if you plan on using the Silverado for business. The Dodge not only offers available in-cabin storage cubbies, but also storage bins built into the truck bed. The Ram also has a coil-over suspension that some reviewers say provides the smoothest ride in the class. Making the buying decision even tougher is the fact that all three trucks have starting prices within about $1,000 of each other.

In the competitive full-size truck class, deciding which truck is right for you is tough, but according to reviewers, so is the Silverado. The Silverado offers a staggering number of engines, trim levels, bed lengths, suspension configurations and other options. Most reviewers say that if it's a truck -- not bells and whistles -- you want, the Silverado makes a great choice.
Other Trucks to Consider

If you're shopping for a full-size pickup truck, you should also consider the Silverado's platform-mate, the GMC Sierra, which offers similar capability and pricing as the Silverado, but slightly different styling. Take a look at the Dodge Ram and Ford F-150 for all the latest technology in the truck class -- but after checking them out, you might find the Silverado's classic truck capability outweighs the newest contraptions.
Details: Chevrolet Silverado 1500

With so many configurations available, it's easy to customize the Silverado to your needs. The Silverado 1500 is available with two-wheel or four-wheel drive; with a short, standard or long bed; with a regular, crew or extended cab, and in Work Truck, LT and LTZ trims. Reviewers enjoyed the Silverado's capabilities and comfort regardless of which combination of the award-winning truck they drove. Buyers should appreciate the Silverado's gas mileage, which is among the best in the class. Check out this month's Best Chevrolet Deals to see what incentives are available on the Silverado.

* "In short, the Silverado is probably the most honest interpretation of the term "truck" on the market right now. It's designed to move stuff, to give you everything you need and no fluff, something worth noting in a market stuffed with gimmicks and gadgets. " -- Jalopnik
* "It's one of the best full-size trucks you can buy." -- Edmunds
* "The Silverado doesn't offer fancy luxury packages, but rather provides an outstanding foundation to tackle tough chores." -- Cars.com
* "A lengthy list of available features, including 4WD that can be used on dry pavement, makes Silverado an excellent choice for anyone shopping large pickups -- Consumer Guide

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Silverado-1500/

@ Joe - yes I did.
I was tempted to wait for the 2011 trucks but with the year end factory discounts and dealer discounts I got the truck for 25% off of MSRP. I got another 10% off with my trade.

The 2 concerns I have with the 2011's are:
1. I've always made a point of avoiding the first year production run of any product and
2: If Ford continues to sell well and the new engines increase Ford sales we will no longer see large rebates.

@Silveradoman - I am happy that I don't have a GM product in my driveway. That was the only thing I had in common with you and that was really creeping me out.

@Silveradoman :I bet your truck and home have one thing in common - they both are on blocks in a field.

@Bob Again,

I have heard plenty of "Analogies" and "Stories" from Ford guys.....But they always fall short in the real world when compared to a GM product.....

I can buy a Powerjoke Superpoopy for pennies on the dollar on Auto trader. This is awesome for me because there are so many of them, it makes my truck become worth more. But hey, not everybody can afford a Duramax now can they. Some people just settle for second best.

Bottom line....Ford uses money from the Government, the same money I pay in taxes....Put on your blinders and disguise it with any fancy words you want, but they are still financed, although partially, by Uncle Sam. I know GM was bought out by the US, but ultimately, it really doesn't matter. I am but one of many tax payers, and giving some money to GM isn't going to bankrupt the Country.

@Lou, I know why people like you hate GM trucks....Its because their owners are always so polite! We wave when passing Fords and Dodges up hills while towing our 5th wheels or construction loads..... Hey, next time you can't maintain speed up a slight incline, make way for the Duramax to pass you...Its just gonna happen.

I am extra nice. I will stop and help you with your overheated radiator...Heck, I will even give you a ride to the next town for some help.

But in the winter, I wish all you Ford guys would get the heated rear bumper option....This way your hands won't freeze while your remaining true to your "rather push a Ford" saying.....

@Top Dog

"Some people just settle for second best"

I guess that's why there are literally dozens of 80's and early 90's models Fords and Dodges around here (one Ford that's even a 78!) and only 1 86 Chevy. These trucks have been daily drivers, farm trucks and pulled hay trailers every year since they were bought. Lose the little 5th wheel travel trailer and try pulling a goose neck with 15-20 round bales sometime.

Most Chevy owners tend to drive their trucks 4-5 years, most Ford/Dodge owners tend to drive theirs 10-15 years.

@enjelus,

"Most Chevy owners tend to drive their trucks 4-5 years, most Ford/Dodge owners tend to drive theirs 10-15 years."

Forgot to include your reference........

Heck, since were going off of what we see have experienced....I have seen both Dodges and GM trucks DOMINATE Ford trucks. Heck, our 2005 6.0l Dooley was quicker than our 2006 5.4 liter F350 SRW while towing, empty, uphill, downhill...You name it. Guess which truck constantly needed service...........

Don't even try to compare diesels...The Duramax and Cummins mean business....The Post 7.3l Powerstrokes have been a JOKE, although the new 6.7l looks promising. You go ahead and keep your 5.4l gas, 6.0l Diesel, and 6.4 liter Diesels.....I will stay with my Government motors duramax and enjoy your tax powered quality, which is second to none.

Oh, please throw the 70s and 80s quality crap at me again....Combining the word Quality with American vehicles back in those days would be like me saying Union backed workers are harder workers.....Bwahahaha.

@Top Dog

When have I ever defended a 6.0L or 6.4L Powerstroke? I'll help you out, never. Earlier this year I bought an '05 Dodge specifically because I prefer the Cummins and didn't want to buy a 10 year old truck just to get a 7.3L.

The 5.4L on the other hand is a good engine, my father's '01 has never had a problem and pulls anything we've ever needed it to.

Yeah 80's trucks had such poor quality... that probably why my dad traded his '85 on the '01 (I'll help you with the math that's 16 years).

@Enjelus,

My appologies...I wasn't trying to take a Dig at you. Just can't figure out your angle. Figured since you jumped in against me you were a Ford guy. I really have no preference in automakers. I just find it hilarious how many excuses people can come up with for Ford even though they take government (your) money and make a profit....Just like GM and Dodge. Its kind of like calling the kettle black, when everybody already knows that.

Ford F-series is the only thing holding Ford together,its cars are way down in sales..

Milky,
Not to get political,but the U.S has Obama now,and polls say people would rather have Bush back than Obama !! He doesnt like trucks as evivent in shutting down drilling and he created the most loss of jobs in Louisiana by shutting down the oil drilling ! More loss of jobs than Katrina !! WHY !! Because he wants you to ride a bicycle and live in a comune !! Socialists way,wake up and think for yourself !

Frank,
My Ford truck isnt the best.Bought it because it was a lower price than any other full size,that is the only reason.And reliability isnt its strong point.

@ topdog - quote " and giving some money to GM isn't going to bankrupt the Country."
You don't think 60 billion isn't a lot of money?

Where did the US government get the money to bailout Wall Street, banks, GMC, and Chrysler?

Foreign owners of US Treasury Securities (Feb 2010)
Nation ..................................................percentage
People's Republic of China (mainland)........... 23.4 %
Japan ........................................................ 20.5 %
United Kingdom ............................................ 6.2 %
Oil exporters ................................................ 5.8 %
Brazil ........................................................... 4.6 %
Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Hong Kong) ........................................ 4.1 %
Republic of China (Taiwan) ............................. 3.2 %
Russia .......................................................... 3.2 %
Grand Total .................................................. 65.8 %

Giving money to GM in your words "isn't going to bankrupt the country" - but it sure as hell going to make the Chinese and Japanese aa sh-t load of money.

@ fleetthis - I've never said I hated GM trucks. I like the Sierra. I do hate the looks of the Silverado.
You are new to this site - everyone knew that I owned a GM van. Got hammered for it quite often.

I was going to buy a Sierra when the economic crisis hit. Cold feet about buying during the crisis and being pissed off at GM killed the deal.
I hate GM Corporation and the idiots that ran/run it.
Why?
The biggest auto company in the world mismanaged themselves to the point of extinction.
I'll support companies that can stand on their own 2 feet.
What ever happened to the American ideal of "rugged individualism" ?

@Gooey Bum - not to get political but "2 terms of George Dubya got the country into this mess.
As far as I'm concerned - a government's job is to ensure the safety and security of its residents from internal and external threats. (Whether or not those treats are physical or financial)
George Dubya done a wonderful job of that (sic).

Obama is going to pay for his predecessor's legacy.

John Mccain was my pick just in case you want to label me a Socialist.

Too bad you are having problems with your truck.

@ Topdog - you have no preference in automakers. I find that hard to believe.

I'm not brand loyal.

Logic does dictate preference. ( Ranking of choice).

If GM actually pays back my great great great great grandchildren - I might consider giving them my hard earned cash for one of their products.
If GM comes out with a truck with better options and features I want in a truck - I might consider giving them my hard earned cash for a truck.

Even if you remove my negative opinion of GM corp.
- when I looked at 1/2 tons, Ford had all the options and features I wanted.
Roomy crew cab.
6.5 box.
Tailgate step.
Box side access steps.
Best technology (Sync)
Best trailer brake controller.
Best backup camera system.
Better interior than GM.
Better ride than GM.
More front bumper ground clearance than GM.
I love the high box sides - much safer for my 2 dogs or cargo.

Everyone takes government money.
I do agree with you on that point.

You may think it's nitpicking or disguising things with fancy words - that just means you need to dig deeper or get a dictionary.
GM came out and used "fancy words" to say they paid back the loans.
All they did was move government money out of one account and put it onto the "government loan".
Fancy words say close to 60 billion is not a loan.
Fancy words say we will get our 60 billion back.

Fancy that!

This is for the X brand is the "cheapest" crowd.

If you can believe this document, they're selling the Silverado with the highest average discounts of any vehicle:
http://www.truecar.com/media/references/TrueTrends_by_TrueCar_August_2010.pdf

2010 Silverado is the cheapest for 2010.

2011 Silverado 2500 HD is the cheapest for 2011

GM really biffed it with the GMT900 pickups. Even the blowhards over at GM Inside News complain about rusting bumpers on 1 and 2 year old trucks, paper-thin sheet metal on the doors, and interiors by Rubbermaid. It's no wonder they're losing the combined sales crown to the F-Series.

Top Discounts: 2010 models - car, suv or truck

#1: Chevy Silverado 1500 23% Below MSRP

http://www.truecar.com/media/references/TrueTrends_by_TrueCar_August_2010.pdf

page 4

@Lou,

Cool. What is the breakdown for Ford when they take money?

@Top Dog - every company receives government money.
I agree with you on that point.

But does every company default on 180 billion.
That is how large GM's debt was - correction "old GM".
How many taxpayers lost money on that deal?

180 billion - what happened to the companies, banks, retirement plans, private citizens etc. that are owed that money?

60 billion of new debt -

Well, actually GM doesn't own that debt - we do.

Getting government money to build battery powered cars is considerably different than blowing 180 billion and then having taxpayers go in the hole for another 60.

Lets see..... 180 + 60 = 240 billion.

I wonder how many battery operated cars you could build with that money?

It's just taxpayer's money after all.

ford don't have a better truck,,put this in your book,gm,dodge,Toyota,have better engine ,gas or diesel,,Wye you put big number in your truck if you have nothing under the hood...everytime y see a ford ,,whit a trailer.y said to my self poor man...they have something better on the market...keep sleeping boy..

@miath - tu es plein de merde!

Why the fuss over who got what bailout?
All governments subsidize industry, the big three all got freebees. The biggest difference was that ford has the biggest debt load since it mortgaged EVERYTHING 5 years ago when they foresaw the coming econo-pocalyps and didnt go bk. they are all still iffy.

@Mike,

Bingo...We have a winner! Finally, somebody that can see there is no difference in how any of the big three take government money. The money is all the same color, no matter what label you put on it.