Rumors Fly Regarding Next-Gen Cummins

Long-Hauler engine II
We’re starting to hear some rumblings about the next-generation Cummins turbo-diesel engine — which makes up about 85 percent of all Ram HD sales — being slated for installation in 2014 models. 

Another hurdle in emissions regulations is due for the 2014 model year, and we hear that Cummins may move away from its relatively expensive precious-metal catalyst strategy in favor of the proven  urea-injection technology. (Ram HDs don't need to use urea-injection fluid tanks, whereas Ford's Power Stroke and GM's Duramax engines use urea injection.)

Because of a different EPA regulation for commercial chassis-cab trucks, the Ram 3500, 4500 and 5500 work trucks already use diesel exhaust fluid to neutralize nitrous oxide emissions, while the catalytic-converter-like filters of the non-commercial Ram 2500 HD and Ram 3500 HD are used elsewhere, and the costs of those catalysts are climbing.

That makes the possibility of steering toward the less-expensive industry-standard DEF more likely. The only real question, especially since Ram already has the technology on other HDs, is why wouldn’t they start putting the new urea-injection technology on all Ram HDs starting Jan. 1, 2013, to be the first to meet the stricter emissions regulations?

That would make sense to us, but then again we haven’t heard anything definitive yet. 

Comments

first company to put a small diesel in a half ton wins the market.....

They can't start putting urea injection in their trucks because they've spent the last couple years bragging about NOT using urea injection!

First company that puts a small diesel in a small/midsize modern pickup will "truly" win that entire market. There will be literally no competition left.

@Ken E. ABSOLUTELY! Once the first company does it 1-2 model years later another 1-2 companies will follow suit. A diesel option like that can cover up for a lot of other preferences...

Hope they bump up the power. Its no fun watching Ford and GM diesels run circles around the cummins for the past 2 years.

The CUMMINS diesel lasts 100,000 more miles before needing a overhaul compared to Ford and Chevy. (350,000) For Ram.

Ram will be the first to add a diesel to their half ton trucks.
The diesel will also go into the award winning Grand Cherokee.

Diesels in 1/2 tons will not be popular. They will be very expensive, and offer no fuel economy benefit. Tightening emissions regulations will make the situation even worse. Diesel is in the process of being replaced by CNG and LNG in commercial trucks. Diesel is dead, get over it.

@HEMI V8, Diesels are already used in Grand Cherokees outside North America.

Diesels in 1/2 tons will not be popular. They will be very expensive, and offer no fuel economy benefit. Tightening emissions regulations will make the situation even worse. Diesel is in the process of being replaced by CNG and LNG in commercial trucks. Diesel is dead, get over it.
Posted by: Big Bob | Jul 12, 2012 3:29:09 PM

i have to agree i don't ever see diesel's taking off in this country until they let the emissions alone and just let them run, look at the new diesels all kinds of problems related to emissions

I agree. Diesel in half tons will not be as big as some people think. Although I don't think diesel is dead, I do think it's heyday was in the recent past.

Johnny doe....I agree with ya on that one....but who really needs more power in a "light duty" truck?? Much more of a boost and they will be rivaling road tractor power numbers. Back in 89 when the cummins was first introduced in the Ram, it ran circles around the others for YEARS while the other had to play catch up....it took GM 10 years to respond to the power and reliability of the cummis. The 7.3 power stroke was a good engine but didnt have the torque down around 1600 rpmthey were just a few hundred rpm higher.

If diesels are dead than why is BMW, Mercedes & VW putting so much effort in getting more diesels in their cars. German engineers are leading the way and it will spill over with the US manufactures. The emissions hurdle will get solved.
Their is a automotive writer/talk show host in the St Louis area that does consulting work for both domestic and import brands and he said to expect more diesels in the future across car and truck lines. He stated 2014 and beyond will be the turning point. He said they are turning to diesels for the fuel mileage mandate all the manufactures will have to meet as time goes on. They will be teamed will hybrid technology in a lot of cases.

I think that where we are right now with diesel engines, poor fuel economy, and emissions technology is comparable to where gas engines were in the '70's. The manufacturers are still coming to terms with all of these rules and complexities.
I bet Ram will end up with DEF.
They will then have to eat crow like GM did with all of their Howie commercials. The irony is that in Canada, Ram claims the "longest lasting and most reliable" just like GM does in the States. You'd think they would learn from each other's dumb advertising.

Id like to buy a new Ram HD but my other 2 (98 & 04) are still going strong!

@Southern IL man and @ Lou
I think DEF may overcome all the US problems with the high sulphur diesel fuel available in the US. CNG and LPG is used here but it does not replace diesel.


It's a good selling point RAM has,you dont have to spend extra money on Eurea fluid..

I know that would turn alot of people off of a Diesel,people dont even check the engine oil or add air to their tires and now they want us to add eurea ! RAM wins because they dont use it so-far...The Government always makes things more costly and complicated for the consumer.

We already had Diesels in 1500 model trucks...due to slow sales they stopped them..GM had Diesels in 1/2 tons for decades..

Dodge had a Diesel in the 150 in the late 70's,again slow sales killed it off..

With the higher cost of buying a Diesel truck,higher cost of maintaining a Diesel and Diesel fuel is now higher,but usually within the same as gas either lower or a bit higher,I can see why manufacturers are skeptical about producing a Diesel truck..With V-8 HEMI RAM's getting 18-19 mpg V-6 Ford's getting 18-19 mpg and GM trucks pretty good as well,Diesels may just be too expensive..

My own 05 Dodge Hemi Ram already has 286,700 miles on original engine and no signs of it on its way out.I dont know why you need a diesel in a half ton,if you need a Diesel for work,you get a 2500/3500 ect as they can pull/tow more than a 1/2 ton..My buddies 08 gas powered Ford has 150,000 and going strong my other buddy has a 02 GMC 130,000 and going strong,my other buddy has a 77 Dodge 1/2 ton 400 4bbl Big Block and so far the odometer rolled over 5 times since his ownership in the late 1980's..After 99,999 miles it goes back to 0.

So is it worth the extra money to buy a Diesel in a 1/2 ton ? Sure you may get a few more mpg depending on the Diesel they use,but performance/excelleration will suffer,you will have higher maintenance costs..I guess we will find out as it looks Chrysler/GM and maybe Ford and Nissan at some point will come out with a 1/2 ton diesel.Who knows I could be wrong,but I know people dont like spending extra money on maint...and Diesels cost a heck of a lot more..just compare oil changes and adding eurea to the tank...Just my educated/experienced thoughts..I am sure many will diss me and put something down,but the points I put out are key..higher maint..higher purchase price adding eurea turns people off for 1/2 ton buyers...

From what I understand, the Ram's Cummins was '2010 emissions' compliant back in '06 and earned itself a few extra years of non compliant, DEF exempt diesels. That exemption ends in 2014.

Diesels used to be cheap, simple, low maintenance and ran forever. They used to be completely smog exempt and diesel fuel was much cheaper than reg unleaded.

This was at a time gasoline engines had fussy carbs and chocked by emissions. You were lucky to get 100K miles out of one.

Today you'd be crazy to consider a diesel when a gasser is available. I haven't just watched diesels devolve, but I've been in the middle of it. It started with my 1st diesel in high school to my current '07 6.0. Never again. Done.

Around the world, things may be different, and I understand some light vehicles don't even give you a gas option, but around here and definitely in the blogosphere, all I see a romantic view of diesels by those that have no experience owning one and would likely come to their senses before pulling the trigger on one.

When NA OEMs kick around the idea of baby diesels in half tons, they're just hoping to get their brand in another article or thread.

The price of all vehicles will be rising around OECD economies. There seems to be a "pact" between alot of nations regarding vehicle emissions.

Your pickups like ours will have to rise in price to meet new and tougher emission regulations and convert to diesel.

Other than engine technology, the biggest killer to achieving reasonable mpg figures in NA is the size of pickup trucks versus their capacity for work "effieciency".

In Australia we have had LPG for several decades it's been really cheap to purchase but diesel has surpassed LPG by a huge margin.

Putting brand names aside on average all diesels will out live their gasoline cousins.

It's not a matter of "if you get diesels" but "when" in all forms of your vehicles.

Starting this year you will start to see an influx of diesel cars entering your market.

It's not just Fiat like this instance that needs to "modernise" their engine lineup but all vehicle manufacturers. It's just the first of many.

I agree with the need for half ton diesel pickups.

Lets hope Cummins is working on improving fuel economy.

@DenverMike:

No doubt, that POS 6.0 would make anyone never buy another diesel.

@Ken - Actually the 6.0 has been almost perfect and hasn't left me stranded or failed to start, but it's still cost me more $15K so far in initial cost (diesel option), repairs and maintenance.

This is pretty typical with Cummins and DuraMax at the 170K mark.

2013 Cummings engine changes ?
1. The pickup truck engine will be nicknamed "seahawk" and C&C will be nicknamed "Dragon"(i wonder how much the guy gets paid who thinks these names up)
2. The bedplate is a new design to help aid in block strength
3. New oil pan and new pickup tube(the oil pan looks alittle different but not much)
4. Engines will have yet another new dampner with a friction shim behind it
5. New cam with different intake duration and lift
6. Pistons will be coated and have different design bowl
7. Different coolant jets for pistons
8. ALL 2013 vehicles will use new coolant called OAT and is purple
9. Cylinder head is different to help swirl to take place in combustion chamber
10. New turbo that is now programmable
11. Exhaust manifold is now a split design and EGR uses the back 3 cylinders
12. New NOX sensor at turbo
13. Trucks will have a longer wait to start lamp that will last up to 75 seconds instead of 30 seconds
14. Fan pulley is smaller to allow for faster spinning and water pump pulley is smaller
15. The batwing(plate covering the egr tube on front of engine) is new
16. New flex plate
17. New airbox that will have a second door that is opened by a actautor door when the PCM thinks engine needs more fresh air
18. Fuel rail will use 2 sensors for fuel pressure now
19. Fuel filter will be a 3 micron and 10 micron filter now. If u do not install a fuel filter the truck will not start
20. C&C truck injectors are the same as the injectors used in cummins medium duty engine
21. you will be able to reset the oil life thru the EVIC now or use the gas pedal
22. New PCM will be used consisting of 96 wires. Uses new software and new coding so aftermarket guys will prolly have to go back to the drawing board on programming
23. and FINALLY 2500 and 3500 trucks WILL USE DEF
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/2010-general-discussion/510433-2013.html

Any HP/TQ #'s?

You people claiming that diesels are dying and will never work in the United States are crazy. In a lot of these vehicles they get mega boosts in fuel economy. More maintenance? Because you have to add DEF once per month? CNG is what will never catch on. Its expensive for the infrastructure (which doesn't exist) and takes up too much space.

The only way they'll get "mega boosts in fuel economy" is with a smaller lower horsepower engine, as the third world countries get. I've owned a diesel truck for 12 years, oil changes are expensive, 15 quarts and a $10 filter. Fuel filter around $35 and fuel now more expensive than gasoline. With an initial hit of 8-10 thousand more at purchase, I don't see how I can justify a diesel engine for my next truck. Who wants a sub 300 hp engine when they're accustomed to 400?

@Patrick
"19. Fuel filter will be a 3 micron and 10 micron filter now. If u do not install a fuel filter the truck will not start"
Try to do the same with a Euro V or VI diesel, same result. They also do not like dirty diesel either.

@Tom,
The Fiat 3 Litre CRD in the Grand Cherokee out tows the new Hemi performance. engine.

@Tom
A lot of these third world countries are recieving pickups that are more technologically advanced than what you have. The recent NA Ranger is behind technologically than the Great Wall pickup from China.

Even your Taco's technology is behind the Hilux.

These new third world pickups have a 5 star safety rating, far more than what is being offered in any NA pickup.

More hp doesn't equate to technology. Even in NA there are alot of people who couldn't afford to run a 400hp vehicle.

The US is in a lot of debt and large contributing factor to your debt is the importation of oil. Use less oil and help the US recover, use diesel.

Diesel is becoming too costly to install in everyday commuter use/light duty half tons. Ultra low sulfur diesel is like running sand through your fuel system, so chalk up the added cost of lubricity additives. Now having to add DEF too...$$$$$ Then in dropping mileage due to the overly complex and largely unnecessary emissions junk......which all has it's own costly problems too. They'll be priced above most peoples budget. Only diehard soot junkies will be investing the money into them.

Anybody that says diesel is dead does not understand how BTUs determine power and fuel economy.....

As I said earlier, I don't think diesels are dead, but the heyday of them being sold as daily drivers has peaked IMO. Why would I want to pay $10k more up front, pay double the maint costs, and have to keep the truck for 200k+ miles to justify the cost? What will power and fuel economy in trucks look like in 5 years from now? This isn't 1990 when MPGs were stagnant for years to come. We all know what the EPA mpg mandates are for the near future. Wouldn't it make more sense to buy the least expensive option now and replace it at 100k or 150k miles with the newest technology of the time? For many this makes more sense.

Last year PUT reported that Nissan was working with Cummins for the Titan. Looks like a similar timeframe.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/05/cummins-feds-developing-four-cylinder-diesel-for-nissan-titan.html

These knuckle-headed manufacturers need to get off the high HP/TQ kick and develop more fuel efficient vehicles. I'd love to see that little cummins make it to production.

@ford850
You like a lot on this site quote the past, is this common in NA? Look to the future and don't be scared of change.

In 5 years from know it is feasible that an HD could be powered by a 3.0 litre V6 diesel. An 3.0 litre diesel costs the same as a V8 gas engine. You don't need the horsepower to move vehicles you currently drive. As more and more diesels are manufactured unit cost will reduce.

At the moment they are producing between 170-180kw (up to 250hp) and up to 420ftlb of torque. In five years they should be producing upto 220kw and 450-500ftlbs of torque, enough to propel and F-250.

Yes, they cost money, but this is the price you pay to catch up with the world.

Personal Opinion: Small diesel in Small truck = Big Win!

4- or 5-cylinder diesels in the lower displacement ranges could really help improve fleet fuel mileage ratings.
Small trucks of the early S-10/Ranger size would really help improve fleet fuel mileage ratings.
Combine the two and the fuel mileage ratings could average 30mpg or higher compared to the 21mpg average we're now seeing on trucks.

Not everybody needs a huge gas-hog engine.
Not everybody needs a huge road-whale body.
Everybody wants to save money.

BMW's top diesel motor is a 3.0 tri turbo unit producing 376hp and 545 lbs of torque. this is roughly 125hp/L and 182 lbs/L

If our motors were as efficient at producing power the new Ford 6.7 or Cummins 6.7 would be at 838hp and 1217 lbs of torque. We have a hell of a long ways to go on our motors.

I think the 3.0 from VM Motori will probably be tuned up just a hair for the US market since we like more power. My guess is 250-260 hp and torque of 420 lbs. I wouldn't be surprised to see our 2500/3500 series of trucks move to 5-5.5 L motors for the next gen and have power above what we have today but use about 15% less fuel. There won't have to be any compromises made either.

I also expect that all of the motors will be rated for at least B20 so we can use more domestic fuel resources and this in turn will help both lubricity and overall emmissions at lower overall costs. I also expect the EPA to mandate B20 as a standard mix, like E10 in gas now, by about 2014-2016 or so when new economy measures and emmissions measures are set for the heavy duty markets.

In summary I don't think diesel is dead, just being transformed like gas was in the mid-late 70's and the costs will likely come down as the world emmissions' targets start aligning (like Euro 6 and T2B5) and costs are spread not over 100,000 units but 3,000,000 units.

If I needed a HD truck. it would be a Ram just for the fact I couold get a standard trans. and 350hp 650-700lbt/ft just fine, reg cab of cause and 4X4. But I am happy with the Ecco-Boost for now, and I pull an Airsteam 29', and the boat only wieghs 9,000 boat and trailer, and the F-150 handles tham with no problem, and still get over 15mpg doing it to boot, so no need to get a diesel at all. Expecialy with Diesel at $4.75 here and reg at $4.25.

@mhowarth - agreed. I made the same comment earlier. This is the 1970's for diesel engines. As you pointed out the Euro diesels have good power and better mpg than their gas cousins. Google the specs on Euro SUV's in NA with V6 diesels. They all have similar displacemnt and HP to what you posted and all get better MPG. Performance is close as well. Cost is around the 3 - 4,000 mark. Some of those luxury SUV's are almost as heavy as a 1/2 ton.
We've gotten spoiled. Do we really need 400 hp pickups anyway? since most never get used to max capacity. I had no problem hauling a small camperette and trailer with 195 hp in 1990. I just wasn't going to be able to do it at 80 mph. No big deal really.

@ lou,

I am very pleased that Euro 6 and T2B5 are going to be so close they are practically the same. We'll be getting a lot more options very soon which can only be a good thing. europe has the tech and production capacity and we have the buying volume to make the costs reasonable (I bet most of the modest sized motors will only be $1k to maybe $3k for the upgrade not $9k like the big 2500/3500's)

I really do like the MPG's of my Prius and really wouldn't give that up right now but I'd love to have the extra torque of a strong diesel in a more fun to drive car (with BMW's announcement today I am really stoked for the 2.0 with 180hp and 280 lbs of torque) that is still very efficient (I don't like the "new" Jetta and still don't trust VW reliability so it is why I didn't buy it)

I know this will translate into our large trucks as well as our SUV/CUV's and other modes of transportation. If I could get a Nissan Frontier with the payload capacity I am seeking but with this 2 liter BMW motor and 8 gears to work with I think I'd be set. I hope to see more of these options in the future and to be able to run at least B20 in it too (go homegrown/carbon neutral fuel!)

@mhowarth
"I am very pleased that Euro 6 and T2B5 are going to be so close they are practically the same. "

That will be good for US Manufacturers of Diesel HD Pickups wanting to export outside the US. I wonder what excuse then , they wil use for NOT Importing Global pickups into the US?

The current RAM Cummins has three major problems:
1. Fuel economy. The LNT in the RAM is less fuel efficient, because in order for it to work, the engine needs to be calibrated to produce the least NOx possible. Sounds good, right? Problem is, when it comes to engine calibrations, NOx and Particulates (soot) are inversely proportional. Tune your NOx down, with lots of EGR and lower combustiuon temps, and your particulates go way up. That means you have to regen the soot trap more often, which uses lots of fuel. Ford and GM can tune their diesels to make minimal soot and then dose the NOx out of existence using Urea injection. RAm pickups WILL begin using urea injection soon, but whether in '13 or '14 is unclear.
2. Horsepower! simply put, its a product of speed and torque- Torque it has, in spades (800lb-ft). Speed, not so much. Because it really is a small medium duty motor, its operating range is way lower than the 6.6-6.7L V8s from the competition. More torque you say then? right now 800 lb-ft is the practical limit for this weight class. Sure Cummins B series engines have held together making twice that much, but the driveline just won't take it.
3. Transmission- GM's decision to source the transmission from Allison was brilliant, as it makes the truck seem that much more "medium duty" The RAM still has a derivative of Chryslers old transmission, which, although very capable, just doesn't have any more to give. ZF has an 8-speed that may work, but its currently designed for slightly LESS torque, and who wants to see that numberdrop? Aisin currently supplies the 6speed for the C/C trucks, working with a lower power cal on the engine. They "may" have something in the works though...
@Robert Ryan- you mean, aside from the 25% import duty?

Big Al, we get most of our oil from home, USA is the worlds 3rd largest producer, barely behind 1 and 2. Canada and Mexico provide the majority of the rest. We could easily provide 100% if necessary. I doubt the majority of Australians are any better off than most Americans. Where do you guys get your oil?

@Tom
The US imports more than 50% of its crude. In Australia we are marginally better off, but this offset by other exports.

Australia is probably the world's largest overall exporter of raw materials (incld agri products) including energy as a whole.

Due to the US's current woes the least you can import leaves more money to use withing the country or you need to export more.

@mrknowitall. Yes that is the only other impediment I can think of. I do not expect it will be dropped as any direct imports will impact negatively with NA(Including Mexico) production.

@ Mrknowitall. The aisin tranny in the CC Rams are rated for about 700 lb-ft in there current set up. They are also extremely expensive as Chrysler buys them instead of building them.

Still driving my 99 Dodge 2500 diesel with 270K. The only big repair has been the fuel system. Why not a new one? Because 13 years later no one is offering me any better mileage (I get 20 mixed driving). BMW just introduced a diesel that gets 62 mpg. VW also has a high mpg diesel. Is it so outrageous to expect a small to mid sized pickup that will get me 40 mpg? I don't think so, and diesel is the answer.

We are getting ready for retirement and want to purchase a Pick-up truck for travel purposes. Recently purchased a 2013 R-Pod 177 Trailer. We would like to do a lot of travel across Canada/US. We have dogs so would like extended cab, 4x4, Good mileage, Excellent towing, long box (for Kayaks, etc..), Durability, any suggestions on what we should be looking for?

Nissan might beat everyone to the punch!
From all the website forums that are about diesels, all the posts are about serious issues I would hate to deal with. I work for myself and if my truck doesn't start/work correctly im screwed! It turns into a pita! I cant make money sitting at home either. I hear of these problems and I just done see how someone wants to screw around going back and fourth to a dealership. Over a bunch of issues a junk truck would have, not a $60k truck. Real powerful and real comfy only when they run right! New gm trucks are coming im trying one of those if i get better mpg than what I hear about now I will feel good about my purchase. Only diesel I would consider is a gm, I own Ford and dodge!

we all know that diesel fuel is almost a thing of the past. the (e.p.a) is doing a good job of making sure of this. for those of us that beleive in the tried and true 12 valve cummins motor there is still hope with bio fuels. i would have to agree that a half ton diesel truck would be a sweet idea but is probably not the innovation dodge should take. diesel trucks are produced for a reason and that is power. why would a man buy a more costly truck for its fuel econ when you can get 22mpg plus in the 2500 and 3500 cummins 5.9 motor. chevrolet really is cornering the market with its more powerful (off the showroom floor) duramax and it hybrid silverado 4x4 that gets an estimated 24mpg "so iv read." But for me im a very strong cummins fan and i will keep my 12 valve on the road untill i cant buy fuel for it. i will do this because cummins has the only lite duty diesel that i know about able to break that 1 million mile mark. my truck only has 265,000 and still runs like new. ///Thank You Cummins for the I6 5.9 cummins engine the 98 12 valve, the 01 24 valve H.O, and the 04.5 common rail! 3 home runs withing 1 decade! which other manufacture can make such a clam???



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