What...no Chevy Z71?? This has to be rigged!

That picture is funny. It managed to take four beautiful trucks and make the raptor look squished and the frontier looks a crossover to me from that angle. Oh well. Looking forward to shootout.

The title says "ultimate 4x4 shoot out", that is why there is no Chevy or GMC.
Sorry GM you lose again!

Why not a titan pro 4x and a tundra trd?

Does the Tacoma Baja have a rear locker?

Mark, very thorough video. I'm looking forward to the others as well.

Awesome! I can not wait.

Shame no civillian model ever came from the Extended Mobility Package (EMP) GM built for the millitary. Or even some H2 bits fur under a GM 2500.
Shame the Toyota is so expensive for what it is.
Shame you cant order the Raptor in USBP spec- with cloth buckets up front and a vinyl bench in the rear.
@Philliguy- yes. It adds parts to the TRD Off-road package, and that has a rear locker (that activated in Low range only, IIRC)

The small trucks will probably win. The Raptor and Ram will be scouting around trying to find a wide enough trail lol

What's with this Toyota "TRD" nonsense?

Don't keyboards have the letter U any more?

Mr.knowitall,

ugh! Cloth up front and vinyl in the back?

NO THANK YOU!

All leather for me.

I don't know much about competitive off-roading. What I care about in a 4x4 is getting to my hunting spot in one piece without worrying about breaking something, without too much whiplash, and without getting stuck. I do a ton of off-roading on some really wicked terrain (lava flows and rocky mountainous areas) not because I love it so much but just getting to various places camping hunting or fishing. I hope you consider what most people that are buying 4x4 trucks are interested in. Basically I think the best off-road truck should be the one that gets you there in one piece without getting stuck. I'm talking about ride quality, ground clearance, underbody protection, quality of the tires, ability to get through mud and snow, etc. I hope the truck that can do those the best wins this competition. Most of us aren't planning a trip to Moab anytime soon. I'd like to read an article that the average 4x4 truck buyer would like to read.

@beebee Lava flows to get your hunting camp? That sounds awesome! What do you hunt and where?

@Not a troll
The TRD off road Tundra would not be the choice for this event they would probably use a TRD Rock Warrior Tundra which is the special edition off road Tundrahttp://www.toyota.com/tundra/rock-warrior-edition.html . I honestly think the TRD off road and TRD Rock Warrior are the same just that the Rock Warrior has color a matched front with fake beadlock wheels which is probably why they didn't bring a Tundra. Toyota could have given the Rock Warrior a better off road suspension with more ground clearance and a locking diff and I probably would change my opinion on it.

I love the blue color of that Raptor! It's a nice change from the sea of black, white, and silver you usually see vehicles in nowadays.

(We should note that, with a new truck on the horizon, GM declined to participate.)

Wonder if that means the next Z71 is going to be a raptor or powerwagon killer? You think they wouldn't mind joining the shootout. No clue, hopefully it means there is a badass Chevy truck comeing soon!

"GM declined to participate."

That is GM's new motto.

I LAUGH at the fact there is NO Chevrolet shown. No Bowtie among Any of those emblems!!! Chevy trucks frames drag on the ground. They're cheaply built piles of trash!! They have NO SFA!!! What kind of 'supposedly' HD truck doesn't have a SFA??? Look at those new Colorado spy pics. Yet another Low Slung Frame. Might as well drop it a few inches more and let the sparks fly at night. GM sucks. Those idiots couldn't build a Raptor, Ram Runner, Super Duty, Power Wagon competitor if their life depended on it. They haven't had OFF ROAD credibility since the year 1987. What a worthless 'investment' Government Motors was and STILL IS.

@MoparMadness The Colorado thats comeing to the US was the best in offroad in the last shoot out. http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2012/08/global-pickup-shootout-off-road-performance.html Theres only one truck in this off road shoot out that offers SFA the rest are IFS.

(Those idiots couldn't build a Raptor, Ram Runner, Super Duty, Power Wagon competitor if their life depended on it)

The Duramax spanks the Super Duty, and Ram HDs all day long. King Of The Hill Shoot Out ring a bell and Heavy-Duty Hurt Locker Videohttp://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/09/diesel-power-magazines-epic-heavy-duty-hurt-locker-video.html Raptor Ram Runner, think that will come in 2013 (We should note that, with a new truck on the horizon, GM declined to participate.)

(Low Slung Frame) Take a look at Ford and Rams Low Slung Paper Thin Control Arms

@phillyguy Southern Idaho has lots of lava flows. Ancient ones but still pretty cool. Look up craters of the moon national park. There's a lot of large mule deer and elk out there. There's also sage grouse and chukar partridge. Look up record idaho mule deer and it will show some deer taken near the lava flows. There's also rattlesnakes galore.

Wow seriously!! Two full size domestics against the two small japanese trucks. Not exactly a fair fight. The nissan and toy are going to kick butt.

Cant wait for the 2013 RAM ...it will blow away the 2012 RAM...Also a 392 is rumored for the RAM H.D (though not as built as the 392 in the SRT model vehicles)

It will be very interesting to see the outcome. Hopefully this isn't about the quickest on a dirt road and there actually is some real offroading.

I would love to see how these trucks can handle rock climbing, going up creek and river banks etc. Even how much weight can be put in the back safely when off roading.

I think the off roading prowess isn't about the quickest around a dirt "speedway". I should be about real life off roading ie ramp over, approach and departure angles, traction, wheel articulation, hill decent, fuel economy etc.

@Beebee

That is awesome. I'd like to get out west to go for elk sometime soon. Getting picked in the lottery for PA elk is nearly impossible. Seems impossible to get picked for moose in Maine as well.

The test results will depend on the test parameters. The 2 full sized trucks are designed for totally different offroad spectrums. The 2 small trucks are pretty close in capability. The Nissan would have a slight edge in cargo capacity since the Tacoma has its cargo capacity downrated due to the suspension mods. The Raptor is fast but wide with a decreased cargo capacity. The Power Wagon has decent cargo capacity (but not as much as a regular 3/4 ton) and is best at slow speeds.
I think that the Nissan would be the best "allround" offroader as it doesn't take a cargo penalty like the Tacoma. It is cheeper than the Tacoma, and can crawl in between stuff the big boys can't. It also doesn't have a bunch of fanboi's cheering it on.
The perfect truck to win this shootout ;)

I haven't spent anytime in a Raptor or Powerwagon, and I have not been in this trim level of Tacoma, but from what I can tell from my experiences and what I have seen of the other trucks, I would think that:

Tacoma/Frontier will win for bouldering, tight trails, and probably just as general off road utility vehicles. Smaller weight and smaller size with rear lockers is hard to beat. They needs lifts, new tires, and better skids (for sure the frontier skids from the factory are useless) but are pretty good.

Raptor seems like it would just crush when it comes to prerunning. All around great as well, but the smaller trucks if properly equipped will be able to outdo it on some more technical terrain. Raptor is still fantastic deal coming from the factory equipped like that. And it just looks amazing.

Powerwagon would be my choice if I were working in crappy terrain, not just having fun. If for instance I were an oil or gas man I would absolutely gravitate towards the power wagon for two primary reasons the first is a SFA, and the second is a payload in excess of 2000 lbs. Of the four above it has the best combination of offroading capability, durability, and working ability. But its built off of a 3/4ton platform, so that isn't a huge surprise.

Like I said I have not actually driven or ridden in the two larger trucks, but those are my impressions of the four.

The Duramax spanks the Super Duty, and Ram HDs all day long. King Of The Hill Shoot Out ring a bell

-OH WOW!! A DRAG RACING COMPETITION!!! LOLOL! This is an OFF ROAD Shootout you goof. Why are you talking about a Duramax diesel engine in a lightweight tinfoil good for nothing BUT Racing truck? This is Raptor, RamRunner and Power Wagon time!! Low Slung Frames are Ugly, Torsion bars suck. You will NEVER see Dodge or Ford doing that cheap torsion bar crap in a HD truck. Beam Axle or Nothing when it comes to going offroad in a HD. Anything else is for 2 wheel drives a smooth roads. That new ugly Colorado is a Joke compared to these 4 trucks up top. And since the Silverado likewise cannot hang, Chevy's done for.

2012 Ram Power Wagon

Payload 1.905lbs

Towing 10,250lbs

2012 Ford Raptor

Payload 980lbs

Towing 6,000lbs

Lou,

There is not much difference in payload between the three of them.

Tacoma Baja is around 1100 lbs, Raptor around 1000 lbs, , Nissan Pro X around 1100 lbs. If you go by size, the Raptor bed is 6" longer than the Nissan. The standard 5-foot bed on the Nissan is a tad small and will be the most limiting factor for hauling anything.

@Frank, FORD STANDS FOR

F ORD

O WNER

R ECOMMENDS

D ODGE

MOPAR STANDS FOR

M OVE

O VER

P EOPLE

A RE

R ACING

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Aug 10, 2012 7:04:24 PM

pur·pose   [pur-puhs] Show IPA noun, verb, pur·posed, pur·pos·ing.
noun
1.
the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
2.
an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.

BOTH RAM RUNNER AND RAPTOR ARE PURPOSE BUILT TRUCKS!

RAM RUNNER BEAT THE RAPTOR AT IT'S PURPOSE. GOING FAST IN THE DESERT PERIOD. END OF STORY.

IF YOU WANT THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS BUY THE POWER WAGON WHO BEAT THE RAPTOR IN COMPARISON.
According to Four Wheeler’s technical editor, Sean Holman, the fight between the two trucks was incredibly close but the Power Wagon’s superior trail performance in multiple off-road scenarios helped give it the win. The heavier Power Wagon also beat the Raptor in 0-to-60 mph performance and in the quarter-mile. Hardware features, like an integrated winch, front diff locker and powerful 5.7-liter Hemi engine solidified the Power Wagon’s position.
The staff of Four Wheeler magazine, photo credit: Ken Brubaker
According to Four Wheeler’s technical editor, Sean Holman, the fight between the two trucks was incredibly close but the Power Wagon’s superior trail performance in multiple off-road scenarios helped give it the win. The heavier Power Wagon also beat the Raptor in 0-to-60 mph performance and in the quarter-mile. Hardware features, like an integrated winch, front diff locker and powerful 5.7-liter Hemi engine solidified the Power Wagon’s position.
The staff of Four Wheeler magazine, photo credit: Ken Brubaker
“The new Power Wagon is quite nearly the best of all worlds,” said Four Wheeler Editor Douglas McColloch. “Its tall stance and body-on-frame architecture don’t get in the way of delivering a pleasant and relatively quiet highway ride. Its work-truck ethic is belied by its eight-lug axles and 10,000-pound tow rating. And once off the pavement, deep in the dirt, the Power Wagon can simply go places, and do things, that no other fullsize truck on the planet can. Locking differentials, a disconnecting front swaybar, and a 12,000-pound winch---delivered straight from the factory---will do that for you. All in all, the Power Wagon is a very worthy winner of our Pickup Truck of the Year competition.”. “Its tall stance and body-on-frame architecture don’t get in the way of delivering a pleasant and relatively quiet highway ride. Its work-truck ethic is belied by its eight-lug axles and 10,000-pound tow rating. And once off the pavement, deep in the dirt, the Power Wagon can simply go places, and do things, that no other fullsize truck on the planet can. Locking differentials, a disconnecting front swaybar, and a 12,000-pound winch---delivered straight from the factory---will do that for you. All in all, the Power Wagon is a very worthy winner of our Pickup Truck of the Year competition.”

“The new Power Wagon is quite nearly the best of all worlds,” said Four Wheeler Editor Douglas McColloch.

Posted by: HEMI V8

@lou, With all due respect. I am not selling you anything. You can believe what you want. Sorry I am not trying to win any one over. I am not going to sit back on this power wagon article and listen to the Ford Fan club talking out of their ass. When dodge has won both comparisons with both of their off road trucks. I noticed you don't try to rein in Frank for his bozo comments. Of coarse not his in the Ford fan club. You can rest assure i won't be buying any ford anytime soon. And with the recent fire recalls it only fuels the flame. No pun intended.

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Aug 10, 2012 8:05:59 PM

I'm not a fan of any particular brand, but Ford has proven itself.

The Paris to Dakar is considered one of the most arduous off road events in the world.

I don't see any Fiat Rams or GM products.

http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/new-research/77447/ford-raptor-takes-class-with-american-team-in-2011-dakar-rally.jsp

@HEMI V8
First of all the Ram Runner in the previous shootout was an aftermarket product.
Pro driver Chad Ragland noted this about the Ram Runner:
"There needs to be some kind of effective way to deal with the traction and engine controls when running wide open in the desert. Sure, we know not everyone is going to push it like we do, but if you make the hard parts, there's got to be a software piece there, too."
Then Chad goes on to say,
"Maybe I shouldn't say this knowing that the Ram Runner had the faster time, but if I had to pick one truck, the better overall performer, for both on- and off-road, I'd have to pick the Raptor."
That tells me which is the overall winner. He drove both through the tough course and he picks the Raptor as the best overall truck. With the Raptors newest improvements, it is both a crawler and a racer, but a big one at that.
If you want a single purpose truck that does one thing well, then maybe the Ram Runner is best for you.
This test will be a good one though, regardless of the winner.
It will point out each trucks strengths and weaknesses, and I really don't see any of them "losing". If I had to choose between the Ram Runner and Power Wagon, the wagon wins easily.

Looks like a good time!

@ Ram guys
I hope this is not true but the Hemi's EPA number remains the same says car and driver http://blog.caranddriver.com/refreshed-2013-ram-1500-pickup-starts-at-23585-new-v6-eight-speed-automatic-cost-extra/. That would be a lot of R&D and hype just end up back where you started 14city/20hwy can someone confirm or deny this because I am not reading it anywhere else?

Cant wait to see the rest of the videos. I love it. Offroading with any of these trucks would be great...I love the Toyota. But I would have love to see the Tundra off road in there. Maybe a factory shoot out between the tundra, titan, F150, Ram and one the Government Motors truck...Normally anything government own isnt good...
Maybe the army hummer in the mix up too just for the hell of it...I want one of those.I say do a off road test with CARS. Like a camry, accord, focus, --something like that..

@Moparmadness

No SFA, who needs that. Are you crawling on rocks at moab? No? Then it is uselss. Going through mud? Oh, that pumpkin hanging down will drag before any frame. Point being most 99% won't have any need for the SFA other than an extension of their twig and berries, it will never go where it actually has any benefit over a IFS.

The GM trucks have A) more ground clearance (check the specifications) B) are beefier than the SFA's of the other two, and only the last couple of years after the redesign, before they weren't the best C) those swing arms can break if you land on them, a frame won't...

Torsion bars, hmm what were they originally designed for, oh yea the military and their vehicles and tanks. Torsion bar set ups are durable, period.

MOPAR = My Old Pig Aint Running or Mostly Old Parts Assembled randomly (probably the most accurate given their reliability track record) or how about for their trucks Mostly On Paved Asphalt Roads

DODGE = Dads Old Dead Garage Experiment or Doing Overhauls daily Gets Expensive... it goes on and on

Wait Mopar, I thought Mopar stood for Move over people are racing yet you call the Chevy a racing truck? Is someone hurt their cummins couldn't handle the heavyloads in multiple comparison tests against either the Chevy or Ford? I am sorry, so now the Dodge is a sole hardcore offroader now, I gotcha.

This was fun, let's keep doing this!

Waiting for Fordtrucks or one of them to chime in on how awesome and useful SFA's are for plowing, back roads or everyday use.

Ok, back to the topic!

Powerwagon wins for one reason, IT HAS A WINCH! Anyone who does any "real" off-roading knows that sometimes you get stuck. With a winch you can (sometimes) help yourself out and maintain your dignity. Without one, you can do nothing but cry out for help and hope someone does more than laugh at you.

I think it was the Hot Rod guys who high centered a Raptor sometime back and had to turn to a Frontier for help.

@Tyler, no way. GM trucks entire frame is a hinderance. Specs only show 1 spot which could simply be a shock mount. That frame just plain sits too low for my tastes. You're also way off on the SFA. Swing arms with coils give you a better ride that torsion bars do. That's why the 1500 Silverado ditched the torsion bar set up. A SFA is indeed more robust and you can run any size tire you want with it and not worry about half shaft angles or warranty issues. GM going to IFS on their 2500's was a huge mistake back in the 90's. One that no doubt I'm sure they wish they could take back had they known about the uncoming Super Duty from Ford. Guys who spend the big bucks on HD's want the best of everything. No compromises. I'm a Chevy guy and completely disagree with you. I'd Much prefer a SFA on a 2500 truck. IFS is for 1500's only unless you're going Portal.

@MoparMadness Reread them test (-OH WOW!! A DRAG RACING COMPETITION!!! LOLOL!) it was bout towing, payload, mpg, brakeing and engine/exhaust brakeing aka work truck duty/what HD are made for. A Chevy 2500 can almost match a Ram 3500. A Chevy/GMC 3500 can almost match or best a f450 and Ram 4500 in every way.

(That new ugly Colorado) The US. Colorado won't have the same nose.

AND IF ANYONE READ THIS I PICK THE TACO AND POWERWAGON TO BE IN THE TOP TWO EVEN THOUGH I HATE THE MORTARDS AS Lou PUTS IT :)

@KenHarris Is a low frame that can save 1,000s in rocker damage badder, or is low hanging paper thin front swing arms for solid front axle trucks that will bust/bend the arms, bend/twits front drive shaft, maybe give crack/bust transfercase, and bust coil springs if hit by a rock, or tree stump. If you ask the answer is simple. A Torsion bar could fall on a rock, or tree stump. Compare cost to fix the Torsion bar vs a bolt to front axle swing arm that you know damn well twist/bust a swing arm, and atleast bent the front drive shaft in doing so. Thats why I like Chevy simple, cheap, and fool proof easy. They laugh at the drum brakes on the Chevy 1500's which most people buy 1500/half tons. Drum brakes out last disk brakes by a long shot which which equal cheaper to drive/fix. Yeah where ctould be the chance you need stop on a dime, but 9 times out of 10 you don't need to, thats what car insurance is for. My main point is it's cheaper, and easier on the owner's pocket book to have a hinderance frame.

5.3 LOL,

Good find. This is a big deal.

All of that tech and no increase in fuel economy on Hemi 8 speed?

Plus those fuel economy ratings are on mid grade fuel!!!!! Pay more and get less for every day driving. Thanks but no thanks.

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4416410

@Ken

Better ride with a SFA versus a IFS? Seriously, can I have some of what you are smoking. If that was the case anything wanting to ride better would have a SFA but nothing does besides the worst handling vehicles sold, heavyduty pickups. No matter what spring you put on a SFA it won't handle or ride as good as a IFS, period...

So the only point you are making is that it is good for lifiting a truck, what are you running 38's on your SFA truck that you DD?

Take it back? That's why they designed their new IFS to be stornger than the other SFA with their current truck. If they wanted to go back they would have, a SFA is only a selling point for a few people, sounds like you too (rolls eyes) other wise all the comparison test wins on towing and hauling sell more then a SFA. People buy the 2500/3500 trucks to do just that, not hit moab and articulate but to tow and haul. When you run a business you want the best power, ability, handiling, ride ect when you are hauling loads all day every day.

PS, lowest point is lowest point, that's what matters when something drags first. Yes cv angles play a part if your going bigger with a IFS, but any of the trucks can be made to clear bigger tires no problem, but let's stick with stock...

Johhny has good points, the big advantage of discs is releasing heat for prolonged or repetative braking, does a truck ever do this? The only time I can think of unless you for some reason track a truck is a very long down grade that requires alof ot braking for miles on end, in this situation the truck as front discs to cool and new trucks have nannies and trannies to help slow the load anyways. I don't see the point unless you are talking about looks or just to say I have discs all around kinda like SFA owners who brag about it yet never need or use it.

I love reading all the comments from the people who know nothing about fourwheeling and think they are smarter than the engineers who work for our automotive companies.

Firstly, it seems the vast majority of the people posting comments here are completely blinded by their brand biases. You would think people were talking about sports teams due to the irrational nature of most of your posts. You guys debase trucks for the most superficial of things and claim others are superior due to regurgitated marketing slogans or shameless propaganda.

Secondly, solid axles are not a type of suspension, they are a drivetrain component. Vehicles with solid axles may have a traditional leaf sprung suspension, elliptical leaf sprung suspension, coil/coil-over/air-bag radius arm, coil/coil-over/air-bag 1, 3, 4, or 5 link, as well as others. I have ridden in many solid axle trucks that have superior ride quality compared to factory IFS offerings. Also if solid axles truly handled as poorly as some of you IFS fans would like to have others believe, please explain why mustangs handle so well on their solid rear axles? Also why don't truck manufactures start putting IRS into pick ups? I am willing to bet in a blind test that most people would not be able to tell the difference between a solid axle truck and IFS truck all other things being equal.

I have been four wheeling almost my entire life on just about every terrain imaginable as well as in other countries. The only place where an IFS generally performs better than a solid axle is high speed stuff. Don't get me wrong though, solid axles can be capable at speed too. Most Ultra4 racing rigs run solid axles despite the high-speed fourwheeling they do. Solid axles are stronger than their independent counterparts in factory applications. Solid axles are much simpler and cheaper to modify as well.

All of you guys touting that IFS has more ground clearance are fooling yourselves. The ground clearance under an independent suspension changes as the suspension cycles. A solid axle on the other hand maintains constant ground clearance. I don't know about you, but when I go fourwheeling, the ground is not flat. Also, with IFS, you usually get rack and pinion steering, which is considerably more delicate than a steering box.

To top it all off, a solid axle has unlimited wheel travel. Provided to had the proper suspension, you could have a solid axle with four feet of travel. An independent suspension on the other hand is limited by the constant velocity joints in the axle shafts and the length of its arms.

Also, I am sick of people claiming that Raptors have inadequate or poorly designed frames. Their frames are quite strong. Most of this claim originated from a group of Raptor owners who were running their trucks very hard and five or so of them bent the frames. Everything has limits. They abuse these Raptors were subjected to would have done the same to any other pick up. Even full on Baja trucks have limits and break.

In conclusion, I am of the opinion that any serious 4x4 not intended for exclusively high speed fourwheeling should have a solid front axle.

Personally, I would take the Power Wagon out of this group and the Raptor would be my second pick, and I lean Ford in my preferences. Chevy was not included because face it, they are an absolute joke for true fourwheeling. It is absolutely comical reading some of the comments from people who don't have a clue about fourwheeling.

why a powerwagon ST wont hurt the competition imho having the simplier less fancy interior helps w/ my total ourdoors experience (easy to clean less of giving a crap about getting it dirty) but if this review has a normal interior criticism it will hurt the PW when ya coud of used the regualt PW correct me if wrong but w/ the black plastic grille and flares that leads me to think it is the PW ST

@Tyler/JohnnyDoe (aka Sierra, SierraGS, Bvonscott), Your talk on IFS is off base. I'd also venture to say, No, I'll Guarantee the next Silverado has 4 wheels discs. Are you then going to retract your babble about 4 wheel discs being inferior? All GM 3500 trucks and vans that I've seen use 4 wheel discs. Drums are outdated and a plain PITA. Go through water and get them wet and they become worthless. The water or dirt cannot escape fast enough. With discs it falls right off. If your nonsense held any weight all cars would still have 4 wheel drum brakes.

It is also completely obvious you have no idea how a torsion bar suspension works nor how a swing arm coil SFA suspension works. There is a reason the GM 2010 HD's and prior could not handle the front end weight that a SFA could and they had to beef them up. Simply put, GM wanted to keep a softer ride so they used a lighter torsion rod. The heavier you go for load bearing capacities the worse the ride gets. Period, end of story. GM's 1500 IFS rides nice now just like a Ford 1500 Because they got rid of torsion bars just like Ford. A torsion bar does not have a progressive rate of twist (or collapse) like a coiled spring can have. Springs and swing arms are Far better. GM didn't go back to SFA's before because they didn't have the money for a redesign. Maybe in a few years once they're out of the mess they're in they will fix their 20 + year old mistake. As for the frame protecting the rockers, new Chevy's don't have any rockers. The frame likewise (if that was the purpose) only would need to sit maybe 1/4 inch below the body not half a foot. It looks awful. And it's Only that way so the torsion rods can connect from the lower control arms straight to the frame.

Those Ram HEMI EPA numbers are not for the new 8 speed. The numbers stay the same because they will start the year with their old tranny, as planned.

Ford850, I believe you are right. That sounds logical. C&D may have errored when they stated the fuel economy numbers were released for the entire lineup which would have included 8 speed.

@Ford850
That sounds like a reasonable explanation and I hope you are correct because if those are the Car and Driver numbers are it that is terrible.