Ram Owners Accuse FCA, Cummins of Emissions Cheating

2010 Ram HD 1 II

A class-action law suit filed Monday in U.S. District Court in Detroit alleges that Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and Cummins Inc. deceived consumers by not disclosing the correct emissions levels emitted by the Cummins diesel engines in Ram heavy-duty pickup trucks.

The Detroit News and Automotive News (subscription required) are reporting that the suit filed on behalf of almost 500,000 owners of model-year 2007-12 Ram 2500s/3500s claims the companies conspired and rigged the trucks to hide nitrogen oxide emissions that were as much as 14 times higher than permitted by law. The companies are accused of fraud, false advertising and racketeering. The Detroit News reports that the EPA has taken no actions against the companies.

According to both news outlets, FCA and Cummins are reviewing the complaint.

"Based on the information available to it, FCA US does not believe that the claims brought against it are meritorious," Automotive News reported FCA said in a statement to Reuters. "FCA US will contest the lawsuit vigorously."

Jon Mills, a spokesman for Cummins, told Automotive News the lawsuit has no merit and contains false and exaggerated claims.

"Cummins is deeply disappointed in this effort to tarnish our image and we plan to vigorously defend ourselves," Mills said. "Cummins has a robust certification and compliance process and we prohibit the use of defeat devices in our products. We're transparent with all governing bodies in these processes, from the disclosure of the design and operation of the emission control systems, to test processes and results."

FCA and Cummins also are embroiled in a lawsuit regarding as many as 130,000 recalled model-year 2013-2015 Ram 2500 Cummins-equipped pickups to correct emissions issues resulting from intrusive moisture. FCA initially sued Cummins to recover $60 million it spent to repair 42,000 affected trucks and Cummins has countersued, Automotive News reports.

The latest suit comes at a time when Volkswagen Group is attempting to finalize details of its $14.7 billion settlement of its diesel emissions lawsuit.

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Comments

RAM and cummins are done anyway, doesn't matter.
My sources say RAM will be switching diesel engines in the near future. I think it's a mistake but it sure looks like Cummins isn't in their future.

I think this will either get thrown out of court or become a long, drawn-out argument with, at most, a token penalty for Ram. There no evidence of which I'm aware, much less proof, that there was any cheating, intentional or otherwise. So far FCA has been able to prove itself innocent on any diesel cheating charges which seems to demonstrate more that FCA has been following the rules as intended vs the VW Group's efforts to spread the blame. I suspect that these four litigants may have been paid by VWG to try again from another direction.

I remember cummins saying back a few years ago that they
Didn't need DEF to meet emissions. Ford and GM were running
DEF at the time. I wonder?

Sounds like the Detroit News is desperate for attention. Does
anyone honestly think that Cummins would jeopardize their
reputation over this? Don't these engines have to be certified
by the EPA before production begins? Whats to be gained by
messing around with exhaust numbers?

The VW event was the shot heard 'round the emissions world. And this is the result of the EPA screwing around with all this pollution crap that these trucks are strangled with.

The intrusive moisture issue is something I know nothing
about. Gov't meddling has done enough damage. To me,
gasoline and diesel engines are about as clean to technology
can make them. Maybe it's true-the EPA wants to regulate
them out of existence.

It's probably some stinking lawyer group trying to make a buck. I remember when the Audi unintended acceleration issue came out back in the '80's and a really big deal was made about it. Turned out it was all a scam.

This is another teachable moment for Ram fans. First they were beating their chests about being urea-free. Now after using urea for a few yeas, they have been caught cheating. This lie is enough to question all Ram claims. I don't hate Ram trucks. I just lost a lot of respect for them.

Can't wait for the Ford lawsuit for the Powerstroke and the GM lawsuit for the Duramax after this one.

The Toyota unattended acceleration wasn't that big of a deal either, like the Audi one.

The class action suit claims the Cummins diesel engines were tuned to conceal emissions output, which caused the trucks’ catalytic converters to wear out quickly. It alleges that led to vehicles burning fuel at a higher rate and customers often had to replace a converter after the warranty, costing some $3,000 to $5,000.

“The sheer level of fraud and concealment between Chrysler and Cummins is unconscionable, and we believe we have uncovered a deeply entrenched scheme,” Steve Berman, managing partner of Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro LLP law firm, said in a statement.

In August, Fiat Chrysler sued Cummins in U.S. District Court in Detroit over a breach of contract related to an issue with certain trucks and their diesel engine exhaust aftertreatment systems. The lawsuit says that the system Cummins designed did not comply with regulations.

Cummins has countersued Fiat Chrysler and in July submitted a plan to the California Air Resources Board and EPA to recall some 135,824 2013-15 Ram 2500 heavy-duty trucks nationally, court documents show. The trucks have 6.7-liter Cummins diesel engines in them and a recall is necessary to replace component parts in the aftertreatment system that may release air pollutants that exceed emissions levels, according to court filings.

Mills said the parties have agreed to recall the vehicles and that process will begin soon.

The companies are fighting over who would pay for the recall.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2016/11/14/diesel-emissions-fca-cummins/93807138/

---

If the the suit had no merit then Ram and Cummins wouldn't be suing eachother. This fraud. Neither Ram or Cummins are stepping up to take responsibility. Hence why they are both being sued.

From Greg's link:

“Based on the information available to it, FCA US does not believe that the claims brought against it are meritorious,” the company said. “FCA US will contest this lawsuit vigorously.”

GUTS
GLORY
RAM!

SUIT HAS NO MERIT!

ALL GUTS
ALL GLORY
RAM WILL NOT BE BROUGHT DOWN
RAM!!!!!!

I found it interesting that EVERYONE else had to go with DEF while Cummins didn't but hey Cummins do have a rep for being amazing and even they did eventually succumb to DEF.

Hopefully for Fiat and Cummins there isn't any impropriety or VW like behavior(s). We are gonna get to find out that's for sure.

Sounds like things between Fiat and Cummins have been gradually souring not unlike (but less dramatically) than Ford and Navistar International's relationship did.

Time will tell all things and only a complete buffoon would pronounce a verdict in this case with the current public info.

Hopefully all will be cleared and there will still be the lone good reason to choose a Fiat truck in order to get the big Cummins engine.

https://consumerist.com/2016/10/26/ford-issues-trio-of-recalls-over-fire-risks-leaks/


Ford Issues Trio Of Recalls Over Fire Risks, Leaks
Image courtesy of Don Buciak II

October 26, 2016 2:22 pm EST By Ashlee Kieler@akieler

Three Recalls At Once ford recall fuel leak oil leak Fire Risk needed repairs

Vehicles are not supposed to leak fuel or oil. Still, several models of Ford vehicles apparently include those issues, leading the carmaker to announce three recalls covering nearly 500,000 vehicles.

Ford on Wednesday released yet another batch of recalls for unrelated issues in several models of its cars.

The first recall covers approximately 8,026 model year 2015-17 Ford Shelby GT350/R Mustang vehicles that could contain a potential oil leak.

In affected vehicles, the engine oil cooler tube assemblies may have insufficient crimps on the hose that could lead to a hose separation and an oil leak.

According to Ford, a sudden loss of engine oil may result in engine failure, and – in the presence of an ignition source – could lead to a fire.

The carmaker is not aware of any fires, accidents, or injuries related to the issue. Dealers will replace the engine oil tube assembly.

The second, larger recall covers nearly 400,000 model year 2010 to 2012 Ford Escape and 2010 to 2011 Mercury Mariner vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter engines that may contain issues with fuel delivery systems.

Ford says the fuel delivery module supply port could develop a crack, causing a possible fuel leak. Again, a fuel leak in the presence of an ignition source may increase the risk of fire.

The carmaker says it also isn’t aware of any accidents or injuries related to the second recall. Dealers will replace the fuel delivery module flange assembly.

The final, and smallest, recall covers 182 model year 2017 Ford Super Duty 6.7-liter diesel Chassis Cab vehicles with midship fuel tanks.

https://consumerist.com/2016/10/26/ford-issues-trio-of-recalls-over-fire-risks-leaks/


Ford Issues Trio Of Recalls Over Fire Risks, Leaks
Image courtesy of Don Buciak II

October 26, 2016 2:22 pm EST By Ashlee Kieler@akieler

Three Recalls At Once ford recall fuel leak oil leak Fire Risk needed repairs

Vehicles are not supposed to leak fuel or oil. Still, several models of Ford vehicles apparently include those issues, leading the carmaker to announce three recalls covering nearly 500,000 vehicles.

Ford on Wednesday released yet another batch of recalls for unrelated issues in several models of its cars.

The first recall covers approximately 8,026 model year 2015-17 Ford Shelby GT350/R Mustang vehicles that could contain a potential oil leak.

In affected vehicles, the engine oil cooler tube assemblies may have insufficient crimps on the hose that could lead to a hose separation and an oil leak.

According to Ford, a sudden loss of engine oil may result in engine failure, and – in the presence of an ignition source – could lead to a fire.

The carmaker is not aware of any fires, accidents, or injuries related to the issue. Dealers will replace the engine oil tube assembly.

The second, larger recall covers nearly 400,000 model year 2010 to 2012 Ford Escape and 2010 to 2011 Mercury Mariner vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter engines that may contain issues with fuel delivery systems.

Ford says the fuel delivery module supply port could develop a crack, causing a possible fuel leak. Again, a fuel leak in the presence of an ignition source may increase the risk of fire.

The carmaker says it also isn’t aware of any accidents or injuries related to the second recall. Dealers will replace the fuel delivery module flange assembly.

The final, and smallest, recall covers 182 model year 2017 Ford Super Duty 6.7-liter diesel Chassis Cab vehicles with midship fuel tanks.

Looks like his desperate to blame other manufacturers on recall looks like a cat on his cage.
Hahahahahahahaha
No guts
No glory
No dodge.

FUDGED NUMBERS.
NITROGEN OXIDE NIGHTMARE.
BEND OVER.
RAM !

The early scr only cummins had problems.. but not cheating problems. Angry customers having dealt with a less than stellar scr only system (which met emissions at the time and changed when it couldn't) are trying to get some money for their exhaust woes. Sad that class action suits only benefit lawyers. Given the recent version, Audi and Renault among others problems with cheating the lawyers figured the iron was hot. If it were legitimately an emissions issue, it would be the EPA. Are customers saying they noticed NOx coming out their tailpipe? A huge portion of those scr only engines have had their emissions deleted. Probably better to go after that crowd.

Nothing new here. FCA has been surrounded by countless scandals. They try to do whatever they can to save a buck. So far it has backfired many times. Makes one wonder what else they are hiding and have not been caught yet. Maybe Sergio has a secret server at his home.

Be nice if trumps plan has an effect on diesel emissions. I would rather see new technology that eliminates after treatment and makes them just as clean. Soot is nasty stuff. Clean diesels are a good thing regardless of whether they actually need to be as clean as they are or not. A few steps back on how stringent the rules are might boost the technology development by taking new directions that weren't available before because the spec was so hard to meet.

@ HEMI; I can hear that desperado song playing in the background...HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Meanwhile, US's best selling truck for over 40 yrs & No. 1 selling vehicle for over 30 yrs is also the most American made!! RAM is at the bottom of the list & even Toy Tundra is more US made than shaky cheby...hahaha...eat that wankers...heh heh heh!!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/how-to-choose-a-car-truck-or-suv-that-is-%E2%80%98made-in-america%E2%80%99/ar-AAhRavA?ocid=spartandhp&pfr=1

FCA needs to go away and Chryslers needs to DIE PERIOD!!!!

Yep, agree; meanwhile Ford vehicles are the preferred choice with law enforcement...besides having the fastest;

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/here-are-the-10-fastest-police-cars-in-america/ss-AAjWBei?ocid=spartandhp

Lionel,

You could not be more correct. The state Highway Patrol is getting ready to dump all of their Dodge Chargers. They have had nothing but engine, electrical, A/C and brake issues with them. FCA has been given them promises for 2 years now to make them better. And nothing. They are in the process of getting Ford SUV replacements. They have been using a smaller percentage of them for several years and they have been rock solid and the officers love them compared to the Dodges. There is a rumor that FCA is dropping the law enforcement side after next year now.

It looks like all police departments have labeled DODGE as all show and no go. I'll Pass on anything RAM...errrr Dodge.

Is anyone surprised that Fiat would chest ? Fiat is cheap junky crap . LMBO

How many of these trucks even still have emissions systems on them? Around my neck of the woods, it seems like everyother Dodge is running a straight pipe with a tuner on it. Even if they recall them, people aren't going to bring their trucks in because they don't want anyone knowing they did a DPF delete on their own.


Is anyone surprised that Fiat would chest ? Fiat is cheap junky crap . LMBO

Posted by: johnny doe | Nov 16, 2016 6:53:38 PM

Man it would be nice if the Ford clowns would use their own names to post stuff and not mine.

Man it would be nice if the Ford clowns would use their own names to post stuff and not mine.

Posted by: johnny doe | Nov 16, 2016 7:29:21 PM

As we know you as johnny doeby; unofficially this was not your name :-)

FUDGED NUMBERS.
NITROGEN OXIDE NIGHTMARE.
BEND OVER.
RAM !


Posted by: redbloodedxy | Nov 16, 2016 1:42:30 PM

FIRE!!! escape the Ford flames!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgLYuI48ifI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKq8GYG2I2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYVjXh1RPM

Stay thirsty Ford boys and DON'T park next to my new CLASS exclusive Ram Power Wagon

FORD WON'T STAND BEHIND THEIR TRUCK!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgNMOX0I6Ew

It looks like all police departments have labeled DODGE as all show and no go. I'll Pass on anything RAM...errrr Dodge.


Posted by: Frank | Nov 16, 2016 5:14:36 PM

Who the hell is asking you to give up your 99 Super Dooty recall Fire queen? Stick with your man step. You ain't got the GUTS, to achieve the GLORY.

FCA needs to go away and Chryslers needs to DIE PERIOD!!!!


Posted by: Frank | Nov 16, 2016 4:39:02 PM

DIDN'T FORD TESTIFY IF CHRYSLER WENT UNDER SO WOULD FORD. Be careful what you wish for unless your a toy boy. lol

Fiat trucks are running out of cash.

Fiat trucks are running out of cash.


Posted by: Bronco2020 | Nov 17, 2016 12:31:51 AM

NO Ford trucks are running out of cash Fiat trucks have plenty of cash

What gives? My post wasn't posted...

Holy moly, this HEMI dude is really trying to steer attention away from FCA in a bad way. A rather sad event to see.

Nothing new here. FCA has been surrounded by countless scandals. They try to do whatever they can to save a buck. So far it has backfired many times. Makes one wonder what else they are hiding and have not been caught yet. Maybe Sergio has a secret server at his home.


Posted by: Kennith | Nov 16, 2016 3:09:19 PM

This is so very true.

FCA isn't the only one surrounded by scandal. Look at GMs ignition recall they waited until pe

people got killed before they acted. Even they were forced to.

And I believe not too long ago ford tried to procrastinate a recall on brake failures on the ecoboost.

They should check the duramax's emissions, you can't hardly breath around them. You can tell one of them is around just by smell alone. I thought once they got their injector problem fixed they would be better but even the 4th gens smell bad. Lol

FCA isn't the only one surrounded by scandal. Look at GMs ignition recall they waited until pe


Posted by: Gasser V8 | Nov 17, 2016 11:28:11 AM
people got killed before they acted. Even they were forced to.


Posted by: Gasser V8 | Nov 17, 2016 11:29:01 AM

don't try and bring GM into this. All those issues were proven to be the fault of the driver. GM was NOT to blame for that issue. FCA is full of scandal. Especially since the past 2 years.

@ CHEVYSRNOTGREAT; where is your proof it was the driver's fault? Just because one case didn't win out of the several 100 pending cases doesn't mean all were due to the driver's negligence...dude, people got killed.

What?!? They even admitted it was they're fault, they found evidence where GM executives were having meetings back 10 years earlier about the problem. Then ten years later the CEO says they weren't informed of the issue, which was probably a CMA. LOL

Why are they going after these automakers? Why don't they go after the idiots that take the emmissions off their truck and go down the road spewing black smoke like it's cool?

I agree!!!

I doubt if any of the owners of these trucks care if the emissions are above the limit

"RAM and cummins are done anyway, doesn't matter. My sources say RAM will be switching diesel engines in the near future. I think it's a mistake but it sure looks like Cummins isn't in their future."

Is it because the I-6 can't compete with the V-8 diesels?

Probably not, pretty much every road tractor has an I6 under the hood

Probably not, pretty much every road tractor has an I6 under the hood


Posted by: Gasser V8 | Nov 20, 2016 5:26:21 PM

Mainly due to packaging. In line engines do very well in the torque department but seem to not have the HP numbers as a V configured engine. Usually because an inline engine has a much longer stroke than a V engine. It is pretty evident the Duramax and Powerstroke can easily outperform the Cummins 6.7L.

Any leads on what will replace the Cummins if it gets put out?



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