Talking Trucks Tuesday: Pickup Licenses

TTT License

By G.R. Whale

No matter what state you live in, you need a driver's license to drive a pickup truck. You may also need a different license class or endorsement if you ride a motorcycle or three-wheeler, carry hazardous materials (think swimming pool chemicals and fertilizers) or more than eight people, tow a trailer beyond a certain weight or a combination of truck and trailer beyond a certain gross vehicle weight rating, if your motor home weighs more than 26,001 pounds or if it has air brakes. And if you're doing any of this for money, that's a whole other can of worms.

The problem is that each U.S. state, territory and the District of Columbia have their own, sometimes different, rules when it comes to driving regulations. Other countries abide by national driving rules rather than state rules.

Here in the U.S. it gets really complicated when it comes to towing regulations. Some states require a special license for towing a trailer weighing more than 1,500 pounds; in others whether the trailer has brakes or is a fifth-wheel/gooseneck rig may place more regulations on it.

Then there's the driving ability of those who tow. If you have to show that you can parallel park or back up a car to get a driver's license, shouldn't you have to do that with a trailer attached?

What do you think? Should there be a separate towing license, and if so, what parameters would you add? Do you think a towing license should be a national standard so drivers don't have to check five state websites just to get across New England? Or should anyone who passes a normal state driving test be allowed to tow something as heavy as a small house? Let us know in the comments section below.

Cars.com graphic by Paul Dolan; manufacturer image

Comments

"Should there be a separate towing license?" YES.

"...what parameters would you add?" Attachment, Road Driving, and Backing, --- a hands-on applications test.

"Do you think a towing license should be a national standard so drivers don't have to check five state websites just to get across New England?" YES.

"...should anyone who passes a normal state driving test be allowed to tow something as heavy as a small house?" NO.

This should not be rocket science. What do other countries (e.g, Canada, Germany, UK) require for towing and trailering?

================

A license to tow a simple trailer "weighing more than 1,500 pounds" is ridiculous. No one would be able to move anything without calling a professional and U-Haul would go out of business.

We should only infringe of freedom when the situation demands it and there are hard facts to back up the claims that the demand is there. I don't believe that there is any statistical evidence that pickup drivers, especially those pulling trailers, are involved in more accidents than other drivers. I strongly believe that they are involved in fewer accidents and that the drivers of small cars tend to be more dangerous with higher speeds and more aggressive driving. If drivers of pickups do become dangerous the insurance companies will raise rates accordingly and push for safety certifications. So far I have not seen that happening.

License requirements themselves can create hazards that need to be weighed. I just completed a trip to the Grand Canyon with my daughter and her boyfriend. During this trip I fell ill and my driving ability was impaired. We picked some roads with light traffic for him to learn on and I turned the rig over to him. I am confident that he drove better than I was able to during that time. Had I been the only one legally allowed to drive we would have faced a choice of messing up our schedule or me driving while unfit. I would not turn the wheel over to just anyone but the I don't need the government trying to pretend that they know more than I do about who can drive my rig safely.

Also, my experience with boating is that boat driver's licenses have done very little to further the cause of safety. They mostly give the police another way to harass innocent people.

"Should there be a separate towing license?" YES.

"...what parameters would you add?" Attachment, Road Driving, and Backing, --- a hands-on applications test.

"Do you think a towing license should be a national standard so drivers don't have to check five state websites just to get across New England?" YES.

"...should anyone who passes a normal state driving test be allowed to tow something as heavy as a small house?" NO.

This should not be rocket science. What do other countries (e.g, Canada, Germany, UK) require for towing and trailering?

================
Posted by: NMGOM | Dec 6, 2016 10:42:35 AM

What are you nuts????????

Or we could just entrust the safety of our highways to the state police or the highway patrol, who get paid to keep a handle on that stuff.

We already have a DOT in most states, along with the federal department of transportation personnel.

Leave it alone, it is not broken.

Only issue I have is the ability to find the information. That sometimes gets a little difficult, depending upon which state.

NO,NO NO NO NO! Why dont we just regulate ourselves into forever? Can you imagine all the weird laws, and loop holes in such a thing as this relates too? I like the cross state national consistency but not license related, towing on a interstate should have the same process and permits and not be all different like today, but nobody needs a towing license for a small truck or half ton to haul groceries

There needs to strict licensing for towing. If you tow without a license, you are fined $1000, twice $10000 and third time you are fined $15000 with a 6 month jail setence and you are banned from towing for 6 years until you can show you respect the towing laws. Towing has gotten out of hand and needs to stop!

I agree with Willy. Unlicensed towing needs to end.

But even in Australia we do have many utes and pickups towing. But most don't.

Most are grocery getters, just like the US.

I mean, why would you buy a pickup if you don't use it's utility first and foremost? Also, some do buy for the extra space in the back. But many are used as family SUVs, just like here.

Oh, by the way, I'm not stating in no way that full size trucks aren't wanted in the US, just that towing needs to be more regulated.

@johnny doe
Did you read the words 'most people'.

I don't think some of you guys realise that people tend to associate with people of the same interests.

Even the region you live in influences your views. It would be safe to say that most of us have friends that have pickups and we talk pickups with them, irrespective of country. This is no different to people who ski, bike, trek, hunt, fish and etc.

This article highlights a classic example of an iconic vehicle for a nation that is going to no longer exist as it was. The ute.

We will still have utes, but different utes. These newer utes have even been designed and developed in Australia the land of the ute, by the very manufacturer that made the ute a prominent Australian vehicle.

But these new utes are superior in FE, moving families, towing, ability to carry loads, off roading and comfort. Our Australian ute has seen it's day. It just wasn't suitable to the newer and changing world.

Yet this very company has changed the ute for a ute manufactured overseas. Do you not think what's occurred in Australia will not occur in the US?

Do you not think this very company will make use of an 'alternative' pickup for your market?

I really do think some of you guys are very naive.

You can sit there beating your chests about pickups and what YOU think they mean to America. What they really mean is the survival of a company not a nation.

Because America was around prior to pickups and will be around after pickups change. Just like the road barges of old.

No different than Australia.

Australia and every other nation on earth has light commercial vehicles. Light commercial vehicles have been around since the chariot was invented.

Graduated licenses certainly make sense.
I could support:
A- light passenger vehicle- Under 7000#, 200", and 8 occupants
B- cycle
C- Passenger vehicle- 7k-9900#, over 200", 8-15 occupants.
D1- Cargo and Recrreational vehicles- 10k-19,900#, 8 or less occupants
D2- Passenger buss under 20k#, 40passenger...
Commercial licenses from there on up
Towing endorsements required in each class for trailer exceeding 50% of the vehicle curb weight. That would allow anyone to pull a small trailer behind a decent size vehicle, but require farther training/skills test for combinations with more damage potential. You could empower private companies to certify skills tests, just like they now do for cycle endorsements. Dealerships, RV companies... Insurance companies are the ones that should really get behind this.

Yes, I am nuts.
Nuts for reasonable trailering safety.

It's obvious that some trailering individuals don't know a hitch from a banana, and they are the ones who spoil it for all of us.
Yes, I enjoy freedoms and options, but something has to be done to reduce the number of the situations such as in the links below:

http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/multi-car-crash-on-i-15-due-to-a-trailer-coming-off

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/22/22399480-deadly-missiles-unsecured-trailers-pose-threat-to-you-and-your-family?lite

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/20/video-captures-astonishing-moment-a-pickup-truck-towing-a-utility-trailer-goes-flying-off-the-highway/

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2014/01/21/22387158-unhitched-trailers-can-become-missiles-on-the-highway

Simple licensing of trailer-using drivers (car, SUV, truck) may provide a common training to help make sure of a minimum level of trailer competence. No, it won't solve ALL trailering goof-ups, but it may reduce them.

So, for those wo says, the is no evidence of a problems, or "if it ain't broke don't fix it", I can say that there is PLENTY of evidence, that is "broke", and that it is in desperate need of fixing.

Another non-regulatory, non-licensing option may be a simple, required training course (1 day) for anyone buying a trailer in the first place...and we could see how that goes...
He would be required to have his certificate of passing the course in the vehicle when towing.

========================

I personally think it's fine the way it is.

The part that I fine funny,least here in TX, is farm tag trucks and trailers would be exempt and they are the worst offenders.

Yes, I am nuts.
Nuts for reasonable trailering safety.

It's obvious that some trailering individuals don't know a hitch from a banana, and they are the ones who spoil it for all of us.
Yes, I enjoy freedoms and options, but something has to be done to reduce the number of the situations such as in the links below:

http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/multi-car-crash-on-i-15-due-to-a-trailer-coming-off

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/22/22399480-deadly-missiles-unsecured-trailers-pose-threat-to-you-and-your-family?lite

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/20/video-captures-astonishing-moment-a-pickup-truck-towing-a-utility-trailer-goes-flying-off-the-highway/

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2014/01/21/22387158-unhitched-trailers-can-become-missiles-on-the-highway

Simple licensing of trailer-using drivers (car, SUV, truck) may provide a common training to help make sure of a minimum level of trailer competence. No, it won't solve ALL trailering goof-ups, but it may reduce them.

So, for those wo says, the is no evidence of a problems, or "if it ain't broke don't fix it", I can say that there is PLENTY of evidence, that is "broke", and that it is in desperate need of fixing.

Another non-regulatory, non-licensing option may be a simple, required training course (1 day) for anyone buying a trailer in the first place...and we could see how that goes...
He would be required to have his certificate of passing the course in the vehicle when towing.


Your "evidence" for wanting take away freedom from every American is interesting. In the first video no-one was hurt. The second video was a staged incident. The third had nothing to do with a trailer except that one just happened to be in the picture. The fouth was a different link to the same article as number 2.

I don't dispute in any way that there have been some tragedies involving idiots with trailer but in most of these people are already breaking some laws. In my experience law enforcement has little knowledge of trailer pulling and does little to enforce those laws. I have tried and failed to find a law officer that knows what the laws are on trailer brakes, much less even attempts to enforce them. If we want to improve safety lets start with taking the steps necessary to improve enforcement of existing laws. If that doesn't do enough strengthen existing laws within reason but they should be performance oriented, not paperwork oriented.

One of the tenants of our legal system is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Requiring a license is basically saying that you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence. I know that there is a lot of this already but I value freedom and plan to resist every encroachment on it that I find. We will never be able to eliminate every hazard from our lives. I am not against trying but lets be reasonable about it and keep our priorities straight. Freedom is the most valuable thing that we have.

If the vehicle is over 20' long, then go right ahead.

"We should only infringe of freedom when the situation demands it and there are hard facts to back up the claims that the demand is there." -- Posted by: Walt | Dec 6, 2016 10:58:14 AM

There is very clear evidence that pickup trucks are involved in more fatal accidents AND that pickup trucks involved in single-vehicle crashes has a higher ratio of fatalities than any other single class of vehicle. This is true no matter whether the truck is towing or not towing a trailer. Their excessive weight and high center of gravity tends to ensure that any accident is likely to be more severe -- especially when towing -- than crashes in most other classes of vehicle.

@gmgs, its pretty bad when you start arguing with yourself

I agree with several of the other posters, if there is not a problem then lets not add more regualtion. I am curious to know what the numbers say-are there more accidents involving trailers than the general automobile population?
As one poster alluded too-no one has a better grasp on the accident rate than the insurance companies. If there is a problem it will certainly be reflected in thier rates. If additional certificates are indeed helpful, I'd expect this would be reflected in reduced insurance rates for those who hold those certifications. Self-regulation works well so long as others don't try and monkey with it.

More laws? How bout people just use common sense or risk being part of Darwin's theory. If you're to stupid to survive let nature take its course.

I've been towing boats and 20' trailers for over 40 years and I have never seen a multi-vehicle accident that was caused by someone towing. I've seen single vehicle accidents caused by sidewinds, wet pavement, down hill on a cruve etc....

Don't need no more regulations, period.

I agree with Big Billy from Oz. I want more regulation, please!

This is bound to stir the hornets nest ;)

Towing with trucks is nice.

But if anyone has traveled to the US you will see that most pickups haul air with one passenger, not tow trailers, with 3 abreast in the rear.

From the comments on PUTC you would think if you were an overseas reader you would assume that the US is full of pickups towing trailers.

This just ain't the case, but we need more regulation in the US. Because those who are towing trailers need to be regulated so they stay within the law. This is just a fact.

"those who are towing trailers need to be regulated so they stay within the law. This is just a fact."

If having a license makes people "stay within the law" then why is it that virtually everyone on the road is speeding? Why do we have drunk drivers, not using lights in the rain, etc etc? Licenses do not make people either intelligent or law abiding. Just enforce the laws we already have.

@ RoadWhale: can you cite any of the evidence that trailer pulling vehicles are more accident prone/result in greater loss of life? I'm not saying you’re not right but I haven't seen anything (apart from opinions) that would imply that.
Enforce the laws we have. If there is a problem to be addressed that is not already covered by existing laws then add it. Otherwise there is no need to infringe on freedoms just because there is a perception or fear of a problem. We’re not communists-yet.

Yeah....a license that keeps people operating their personal vehicle safely will work wonders just like that license that keeps semi truck drivers from speeding/cutting people off/overloading.......oh wait.

I think there should be a towing license. I also think there should be a boating license.

The only thing I'd change is maybe bump the class A license from 8000lb to 10,000lb so people with a 3/4 ton can haul their full payload without having to buy a class B license which is like 5x the amount. There's a lot if people out there with class A's that are over their liscensed wieght. Lol

uh huh, some states require a boating license

NMGOM - Canada is a bit more standardized. IIRC anything over 10k needs some sort of extra licence endorsement.

I'd say that to tow anything longer than the length of the tow vehicle should require some sort of endorsement. Once over 10k there should be a different towing licence requiring a separate driving test.

You get past 15k and 30 feet long there should be another endorsement requiring a driving test.

I think all those that drive chebys/GMC's should get a special license to handle the shaking :-)

Walt - - -

Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

You said, "Your "evidence" for wanting take away freedom from every American is interesting. In the first video no-one was hurt. The second video was a staged incident. The third had nothing to do with a trailer except that one just happened to be in the picture. The fouth was a different link to the same article as number 2."

Yeah. Sloppy work on my part. Sorry.
Try this one for "evidence":
http://www.old.dangeroustrailers.org/Accidents_In_Florida.html

You also said, "One of the tenants of our legal system is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Requiring a license is basically saying that you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence."

This doesn't work. Does the state assume we are guilty when it requires a driver's license of us all? Why not get rid of licensing requirements altogether and let the best man win the automative carnage that would result? Sort of like Russia. Trailer (driving) licensing would not imply any more guilt than motor-vehicle licensing: it would provide standards, education, training, and a higher level of competence to minimize accidents. Sort of like a medical license required of physicians: I certainly don't want a 1st-year, unlicensed, medical-school dropout doing brain surgery on me! (Although in my case and age, he might have a tough time finding one..(^_^).)

Continuing, you said, "I know that there is a lot of this already but I value freedom and plan to resist every encroachment on it that I find. We will never be able to eliminate every hazard from our lives. I am not against trying but lets be reasonable about it and keep our priorities straight. Freedom is the most valuable thing that we have."

Agreed: Freedom is the most valuable things we have, and part of that freedom is the freedom not to be assassinated on the highway by an irresponsible, careless, ignorant slob who failed to secure his trailer properly. True freedom is not doing anything we want regardless of consequences; true freedom is being responsible citizens AND doing as we wish without endangering others. If that can be made to occur by the required course option I listed above, then fine. Otherwise trailer-driving licensing would be needed, unfortunately.

============================

@Walt -

"Requiring a license is basically saying that you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence."

WTF??????????????????????

Licencing means that you must meet a minimum requirement to perform a set of skills. Virtually every industrial trade or profession has licencing requirements. Those standards exist to protect the public.

Would you allow an unlicensed surgeon to operate on you?
Would you allow an unlicensed pilot to fly a passenger jet?

Your right to be free to do what ever you want ends when they interfere with my rights.

Why is that so difficult for many to comprehend?

NMGOM

Well said.

Not well said. Stupid overregulation is killing this country, killing workers, killing jobs, and killing the economy.

What drives me crazy is getting behind a trailer and it's tail and brake lights don't work.
I say every state should have a safety inspection required on all trailers no matter how big or small.

More regulations mean only one thing. More money for the Govt!!

You want to pull a trailer, YES a license and education required!

I see morons pulling trailers doing over 70-75, what complete idiots!

@Walt
You sir are person that uses logic and reason.
The rest of the comments on this page are made by emotional teenage girls...

It seems to me that some have interpreted my opposition to licenses as opposition to safety. For the record I have six trailers in my yard right now. Four of the six have brakes with breakaway safety engagement. The aluminum trailer with a 4 X 6' bed does not, the other is a tow dolly that I borrowed because I was in a bind and I actually tried to put brakes on it but could not because it didn't have the backing plates required. My tow vehicles are an F150 with max tow package and all the safety features available and a motorhome on a Freightliner chassis with trailer truck running gear. I have been pulling trailers over 40 years and the only two accidents that I have had were backing into things that I couldn't see from the drivers seat. Both times only very minor damage resulted. One was a broken taillight on the trailer. All of my trailers have functional lights, good hitches and good tires. I have installed tire pressure monitoring on trailers pulled behind the motorhome. I don't know anyone that actively practices trailer safety more than I do. When my brother in law bought a boat without trailer brakes I bought brakes for him and helped with the installation. I recently bought an $8,000 equipment trailer and spent a full day getting the brakes up to my standards before I would use it.

The most scary moments I have had while trailer pulling were caused by idiots not pulling trailers passing in dangerous situations and weaving around me in traffic making lane changes challenging or cutting me off. I don't see how me having a license is going to keep those idiots from trying to kill themselves and everyone around them. Seriously, twice while on a two lane road in no passing zones I noticed people coming the other way hitting the brakes and running off the road on my approach. A quick check of my mirrors revealed that I was being passed by someone who didn't care how many people had to die so that he didn't have to look at the back of my trailer for a few seconds. Both times I was at or slightly over the speed limit trying to reduce the motivation for people to pass me. Lane changes on the interstate are often a challenge as many drivers ignore my signaled intentions and jump in the lane that I am trying to get in. They follow so closely that while I am waiting for one to get past me another one jumps in, blocking my path. These are the guys that need education about challenges of pulling a trailer. If we want to address trailer safety we need to make everyone getting a license get educated on what they need to do to help.

Remember, lights are required already, trailer brakes with break away devices are required on most trailers already, safety chains and good hitches are required already, a properly secured load is required already. I am all for enforcing the laws already on the books and even adding a few more performance oriented laws if warrented. I just don't see how having a license is going to make idiots smarter or careless people care more. Stopping them and giving them citations would be more effective and would not burden the innocent in the process.

One final thought, while I know that it does happen occasionally I cannot recall ever seeing an accident that was caused by a trailer. My impression is that there are a lot of other problems that are higher priority for those truly concerned with safety. Again, some hard statistics might be in order, not a hyped up news video of an extremely rare event.

@ NMGOM,

In Canada, as long as you have a drivers licence you can drive anything except Semi's and City/School/Tour Busses..

I was 18 and rented a 5 ton U haul truck to move, I moved back to Arizona...But am half Canadian/American and live with my Mom/Dad off on when I was young.. Now own 3 homes,2 in U.S one in Canada...

No need for an extra licence, it would just be a money /tax grab..

You would spend thousands for testing etc and it doesn't make you a good driver either..

Furthermore, with new truck technology what the hell does having a truck licence do anyways......

New trucks back up for you, plus you have camera's ,lane departure etc..

You cant stop accidents or bad drivers, its always going to happen.. for the most part people drive fairly good..

This would be a tax grab, mise well say add a $25 dollar road tax per half mile driven in a truck plus $5000 per year licence and $30,000 per year insurance and health check up every 3 months..Truck inspection weekly and new tire mandatory every 3 weeks in order to drive a full size truck...And a speed limit of 25 mph everywhere !!!! Safe is Safe,if it saves one life !! Its worth my requirments,I will send this to the Pres..and he will put it I as law..No need to thank me,if it saves one life,its worth it !

If you want to be stupid about it, do my requirements...

This is an interesting topic. As a commercial driver with a CDL, I think it's odd that I have to be certified to operate a commercial vehicle (commercial defined as weight, capacity, etc., not necessarily exclusive to business) and RV owners of class A motorhomes do not, even though they operate in the same weight category. There are RV's grossing well over 40K lbs and in excess of 55ft long (think 45ft coach + 20ft trailer) and somehow their owners do not require any special license or training.

We certainly do not need another department to manage trailering, the government is involved in too many areas already. Within certain bounds the states do a fine job with the laws that are already on the books, enjoy life a little w/o interference.

Diesel_Dice

It is an issue of commercial versus private. Even taxicab drivers have to be licensed. Keep in mind that RV owners don't just have their own safety on the line but often their family and always a huge investment. Plus, they are driving for pleasure so they are not as pushed to make time. Most importantly, the statistics are that they have a very good safety record so there is little to gain by regulating them. That said, I am one of those that believe that the vast majority of commercial truck drivers do a great job and go out of their way to help me navigate in tight spots. Thanks to all of you.

Walt - - -

I surely am glad that you are on this website. Your comments are very thorough and well thought out, even if I may disagree with some of your positions.

And I'm sure you do good and responsible trailering. As do I. I just can't say the same for some others I have seen, as the new link posted above shows.

Being essentially a conservative semi-libertarian, the LAST thing I would want to see is more government regulation. But there is a limit. Otherwise, why have country at all?

But, as I said, there may be an alternative to try first: mandatory 1-day course in "trailering" required of anyone who buys or makes one. Keep certificate in your glove box, which could be checked by police, whose salaries I pay to help me keep me safe. And I'm sure the police could keep their "eye out" for any trailering that looks suspicious or dangerous, and pull you over.

As a further development, IF NEEDED, a copy of the trailering certificate could also be required for you to send in with your primary vehicle registration renewal (as with "inspection" receipts in states like NY, MA, and PA). The DMV could put an annotation on your new vehicle registration that you are approved for trailering of a certain class of trailers.

Anyway, just a bunch of ideas, which may not be completely (or well) formulated, --- just bouncing them off others here, given the Florida link above.

================

How big of a problem is this really? I personal have not seen where having additional licensing for those pulling trailers would improve my safety or the safety of others. Does anyone have any statistics?
Most of the problems I have observed have been out right disregard for the (existing) law-not ignorance. Licensing would do nothing to correct these problems.
I believe, as many others here have stated, that additional licensing will really only serve to enrich the government and add more bureaucracy and cost to our lives. I cannot see a significant opportunity for it to improve my safety or the safety of others. Things like non-functioning turn signals and brake lights are all already covered by the law and an officer can and should be pulling an offender over-this is not an error of ignorance. A license is not going to prevent someone from pulling a trailer at 80 MPH (why is this problem with a properly equipped setup, semis do it all the time?). There is little to be gained and much to be lost with additional licensing- any evidence to prove me wrong?

"@ RoadWhale: can you cite any of the evidence that trailer pulling vehicles are more accident prone/result in greater loss of life? I'm not saying you’re not right but I haven't seen anything (apart from opinions) that would imply that.
Enforce the laws we have. If there is a problem to be addressed that is not already covered by existing laws then add it. Otherwise there is no need to infringe on freedoms just because there is a perception or fear of a problem. We’re not communists-yet.
-- Posted by: Sparky31 | Dec 6, 2016 3:57:13 PM

I suggest you look at my comment again. I didn't say what you think I said.

Sparky31: On reading your later comment...

"Most of the problems I have observed have been out right disregard for the (existing) law-not ignorance. Licensing would do nothing to correct these problems."

You pretty much explain why licensing is necessary with your first sentence here. Licensing implies, if not demands, mandatory education on how to tow properly. Most people who tow and that do not have a Commercial Driving License (CDL) quite often do not even know they're doing it wrong or why it is wrong. Worse, RV lots on average (not to mention car dealerships) don't explain how to drive the vehicle properly, with or without a trailer.

@Sparky31

Roadwhale, formerly known as Vulpine, believes that it's possible to create improvement by having more rules. Fact is, the more rules you have the more difficult it is for those who are sincerely compliant to comply.

Look no farther than the IRS. Instead of having a few simple rules to govern tax collection, you end up with a system that has millions of pages of documentation and untold trillions of pages of documents created by taxpayers and their preparers in the hope of complying with the law. None of which collects a thin DIME of revenue without the efforts of sincere and honest taxpayers who simply want to fulfill their obligation.

Ditto for federal licensing of drivers, operators, commercial operators, etc.

No matter what, it will result in more violations because the more complex the compliance becomes, the more like non-compliance will be.

The more violations that come to light, the more people like Roadwhale will say that the violations PROVE we need more rules.

More laws? How bout people just use common sense or risk being part of Darwin's theory. If you're to stupid to survive let nature take its course.

Posted by: johnny doe
/QUOTE

Problem is many idiotic drivers out there do NOT have common sense,,
And may kill you or others in an accident,,maybe even survive and live to drive again,causing more mayhem..

Fwiw
Ive seen people buying humongous triple axle RV fifth wheel using half ton PU to tow it with,,and the salesman told them,no problem you can tow that easy,,!!
Some laws and education maybe a very good idea,,so we dont have dumbells like that on the roads



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