Inside GM's State-of-the-Art Powertrain Engineering Center

Inside GM’s State-of-the-Art Powertrain Engineering Center
Photos courtesy of General Motors

The engines in today’s GM pickup trucks have never faced stiffer competition, but there’s not much that can be done about their design or performance except to look at the future, which GM is actively shaping inside its state-of-the-art Powertrain Engineering Development Center in Pontiac, Mich.

The $463 million benchmark facility opened in early 2008 next to the company’s Global Powertrain headquarters. It’s the crown jewel of more than 30 years of planning and restructuring.

Until the 1980s, GM’s brand divisions were managed as a confederacy. Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac all maintained separate headquarters and engineering staffs that only came together on the bottom line of the company’s financial statements. It wasn’t unusual for similar vehicles, like the Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird, to use V-8 or V-6 powertrains with designs and parts that didn’t share much in common except for their intended purpose and maybe a few bolts.

Industry rivalry changed all of that. As Japanese cars became popular and Ford and Chrysler grabbed market share from GM with new products, GM consolidated divisional engineering teams into shared resources that would design fewer engines at less cost with increased reliability.

In 1984, five engineering development teams became two with the creation of the Buick-Oldsmobile-Cadillac and Chevrolet-Pontiac-GM of Canada Powertrain divisions. In 1990, they merged into a single entity, General Motors Engine Division. In 1991, GMED and Hydra-Matic transmission groups were reorganized to create GM Powertrain. Later that year, the Central Foundry Division and Advance Engineering were merged into the division. In 1997, the formation of a GM global powertrain organization was announced, encompassing all of GM's powertrain engineering and manufacturing activities outside of North America.

Fueled-1-560
Dyno cells are built to test everything from a standalone engine to a full powertrain. Here, a 5.3-liter V-8 engine is tested with its transmission.

Over time, multiple GM powertrain development centers around Detroit were phased out. GM opened the doors to the Powertrain Engineering Development Center in 2008, on the site of the old Pontiac Motor Division.

But it wasn’t just GM’s disjointed powertrain organization that changed. Three decades ago, computers were quickly finding their way into automotive development. They became invaluable because engineers could save time (and money) by designing and modifying parts on a screen instead of by hand.

Computer aided design was soon supplemented with computer simulation, which tested parts performance virtually before a physical copy was ever fabricated and tested in the real world. Modeling and simulation became more sophisticated as the lessons learned from the previous generation of car or truck were applied to the next generation.

GM slowly transformed its powertrain development process from one that designed and improved engines and transmissions based on real-world trial and error over thousands of vehicles and miles into a modern methodology that has more in common with software development than old-school powertrain hacking.

“If you can move work from the road to the lab, that’s fast. If you can move from the lab to math (data), that’s even faster. That’s our philosophy,” said Radu Theyyunni, GM powertrain engineering group manager for system design and analysis. In GM engineering speak, it’s called RLM: road to lab to math.

Screens-1-560

Theyyunni’s team is brought into a vehicle’s development very early in the lifecycle to help determine its performance and fuel economy targets. If a pickup truck requires a new powertrain, the mill’s displacement, architecture (diesel, gas, direct injection, turbocharged), transmission and axle ratio are estimated, and software is used to calculate the engine’s bore, stroke and crank size to model its power and torque characteristics. All of this happens before a single engine drawing or design has been created. This is where the rubber meets the road for Theyyunni and his number crunchers.

“Our goal is to use simulation methods to make sure that the first time we [physically] build a powertrain, it’s the optimal design,” Theyyunni said. “If you look back to before 2000, we’d design stuff and test it. It was a design and test philosophy. If a part broke, we’d go back and redesign and test it. There would be a postmortem where we’d be asked why [it] broke, and we [could provide a reason] but we weren’t driving the design. It was more like a support role, and each build could take six to eight months. What we’ve done in the last 10 years [is] move to math-based development.”

Today, powertrain analysis and design is done in short cycles, using powerful computers to develop a new engine.

Friction, temperature, emissions, fuel economy and other key traits are modeled and simulated multiple times to optimize component performance long before the first physical part of an engine is tested on a dyno.

“It’s like a zipper,” Theyyunni said. “Now, we do hundreds of [analysis and design] iterations [using computers] depending on what the component is. Then we test in a virtual validation using characteristics modeled in math, such as the ports [which determine how well an engine can breathe], block size and seal and gasket sizing. Each part in the [engine’s] bill of design and materials uses [math-based] rule sets that we’ve developed over time that have become our best practices. That’s what we use to create our simulations. Once you build your hardware, it’s too late to make a [design] change.

Pallet-1-560
Engines are quickly moved in and out of dyno cells on pallets that float on a cushion of air like an air hockey puck.

“Back in the old days, we could always tell you why something broke,” Theyyunni said. “But today when I tell you up front it’s going to break here, it’s a whole new level of responsibility. [Our role] is more challenging, but it’s also more fun.”

The lessons learned from this iterative approach have helped GM improve each new generation of engines and have shortened the time required to develop them. Novel data and lessons learned from real-world testing that don’t agree with existing simulations are turned into new math-based rules that are factored into the next round of virtual validation testing.

“That’s where continuous improvement comes from, and it’s how we get better over time,” Theyyunni said. “Analysis, design and testing are linked together. Some of the designs are baked into our software so if a designer tries to build something out of whack, he’ll get a warning message that he’s violating his part guidelines.”

Depending on complexity and scope, some engine activity modeling can require up to three days of non-stop computing time using more than 100 CPUs to render three minutes of enhanced video footage that can be reviewed and understood by a powertrain engineer. That’s still shorter than what used to require weeks or months testing an actual engine on a dyno, and failing an engine in a computer is cheaper than failing an engine on a dyno.

Part of Theyyunni’s recent modeling efforts were the analysis and design of GM’s next-generation small-block V-8 that will help power all-new Chevy and GMC pickups by 2013 (which we expect will be 2014 model year trucks). The engines will feature aluminum engine blocks, direct injection and an advanced combustion system.

“We looked at hundreds of combinations of ports, chambers, cam designs and injector designs,” Theyyunni said.

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In a non-fueled test cell, a transmission is coupled to an electric motor that stands-in for a gasoline-powered engine.

The latest version of the 6.6-liter Duramax V-8 diesel for the 2011 Chevy and GMC heavy-duty pickups required more than 500 piston bowl designs – a special shape carved in the top of the piston that helps control the way air swirls above the piston during combustion – before the optimal shape was created and rendered in metal.

Finally, after all the analysis, design and simulation are complete, a cross-functional group of engineers and managers reviews the results. If approved, the virtual engine becomes reality within walking distance of the computers it was designed on, and then it’s on to dyno testing or shipped to GM’s Milford Proving Grounds to be installed in a vehicle.

The 450,000-square-foot Powertrain Engineering and Development Center has two test wings that house 85 dynamometer test cells. It also has 100 powertrain component test stands and a powertrain engineering factory where prototype engines — from gasoline to electric — are built and assembled.

Steve Nash, the center’s engineering development manager, walked us around.

In engine dyno cells, test engines are subjected to different loads and environmental conditions using various calibrations designed to help the engine adapt to workload and climate while ensuring the engine doesn’t break. Valvetrain performance is also measured and checked against design specs. What used to require intrusive sensors installed on valves – which added mass and changed a valve’s shape – to measure engine timing is now done passively with lasers that return significantly more accurate data.

To help reduce the costs and risks associated with hot and cold weather simulations, rather than heat or cool entire dyno cells, environment boxes are lowered into place around engines or entire powertrains to simulate temperature extremes, from minus 40 degrees to more than 130 degrees.

Oxidizers-1-560
Thermal oxidizers destroy at least 96 percent of carbon monoxide produced by test engines before the exhaust is released.

Non-firing dyno cells are used to spin up and test transmissions without the need for a conventional engine. Small low-inertia AC electric motors that can be programmed to simulate the firing pulses of almost any kind of internal combustion engine, from four-cylinder to V-10, are mated directly to the experimental gearbox’s torque converter.

“In the old days, we used to always have to have an engine and transmission to do dyno work,” Nash said. “The prime mover was the engine, and the transmission factory would always say we have to wait for the engine before we could test the transmission. In this facility, we’ve decoupled that. We don’t need an engine to start transmission calibrations and development. It’s all about being fast to market.”

Dynoed transmissions can also be paired with test or production rear differentials to simulate drivetrain load. To speed up the powertrain test process even more, the entire rig — with or without an engine — can be tilted dynamically in a way that simulates driving on an actual road or highway to start dialing in transmission calibrations before a future engine is ever fabricated and paired with the gearbox.

“Any road course we have at Milford can be simulated on our tilt stands, including compound angles [which simulate stopping on an angle] and up to 1.3 g [through a turn],” Nash said. “If there’s an issue with a customer’s engine on a specific road course, we can map [the road], bring [the model] in here and rerun it.”

In 63 percent calibration dyno cells, the entire powertrain and drivetrain is brought together physically for the first time. Calibration data from the test is provided to vehicle engineers at Milford, where they can use that information to get a jump-start on making further adjustments and changes in test vehicles running in the real world.

Another innovative technique used to reduce testing time is the plug-and-play movement of engines into dyno cells on air-floated pallets. All of the cables and instrumentation needed to record data during dyno testing that used to be part of the test chamber is rigged to the pallet and engine before the entire unit enters a cell. Changeover procedures that used to require a full day connecting an engine to sensors and fluid feed lines can be now be completed in as little as 20 minutes. This also allows the dyno chamber to have maximum uptime for improved engine testing productivity, and fewer dyno chambers are needed to manage the work. A single person can move the air-cushioned pallets that tip the scales at 3,000 pounds like a giant air hockey puck.

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Powertrain engineers and dyno technicians sit side-by-side outside each test cell during testing.

“We always want to make sure our test cells are running,” Nash said. “And we never have to change the test cell if an engineer comes along and says they need to collect more data. Before, they would screw up our [dyno cell] template. Now, the test cell always stays the same.”

Innovative ideas have also been implemented to manage emergencies. Instead of using carbon dioxide to put out a fire, high-pressure water mist is used to smother flames so rescuers or injured people don’t risk suffocation. Dyno chamber roofs are also engineered at an angle with blow-off panels in the event of an explosion.

All of the engine exhaust created during dyno testing is captured on site and funneled to four large thermal oxidizers that scrub and clean the exhaust to remove up to 98 percent of harmful carbon monoxide and soot before the exhaust is released into the air.

Up to 250,000 gallons of fuel is stored on site, and it takes one large refueling tank truck a day, like you’d see at a gas station, to keep things running. There are 27 fuel types, including all gasoline octanes, diesel, biodiesel, ethanol, methanol, compressed natural gas and liquefied petroleum gas.

All of this adds up to one of the most advanced powertrain facilities on the planet that’s designing and creating GM’s future, one engine at a time.

Comments

@Buy American or say Bye to America!

Guess what won the 2011 King Of The Hammers competition this year?

It was an independent front suspended buggy PROVING you can win and be tough on the rocks even with an IFS!


http://www.fourwheeler.com/eventcoverage/129_1106_2011_king_of_the_hammers/index.html

http://www.off-roadweb.com/events/1106or_king_of_the_hammers_2011/photo_27.html

@Buy American or say Bye to America!

By the way, the U.S. military does not share your thoughts on solid axles and that is why they are getting rid of them for independent systems like the U.S. Marines and U.S. Army!

With light vehicles, the U.S. militray dumped solid axles back in the 80's for the independent suspended MUT which later replaced by the Hummer.

Proven maybe for the 19060's and 1970's but not on today's battlefield. You can learn a lot by what the military uses...

@Buy America,

I will take an American DOHC V8. But yea, pushrods do have a place in my heart. Great, I feel like i'm talking to the wife.

I think you guys are jealous of me!

When I see blind comments about Toyota, you damn right I am gonna respond!

Hey, look, Mike just posted another silly Toyota Tundra recall (voluntary folks!) yet will not give us updates on how Ford was trying to cover their huge safety recall on air bags and fuel tanks to the point the bought off NHTSA had to step in and order one.

At least Toyota is fixing things unlike Ford over the last 20 years of recalls!

Buy American or say Bye to America!

I think Mike Levine is the name listed above!

Right after his ignorant post, the thread is closed on the do we really need to post that Tundra recall while Ford right now has 2 huge ones on the plate thread, hmmmmm!

Under pressure from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford has agreed to recall an additional 1.2 million pickup trucks because the driver’s air bag may inadvertently deploy.

But in a series of letters, the agency accused Ford of skewing the data and said its review found the pickups had the largest number of inadvertent deployments in the agency’s history.

In that letter Ford did not concede there was a safety defect. Doing so could create a problem for the automaker because in 2006 it made a midmodel year change to the wiring on the air bags. That indicates it was aware of a problem. Under federal regulations, when an automaker knows of a safety defect, it must notify the agency within five working days or face civil penalties.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/ford-widens-f-150-recall-by-1-2-million-trucks/

So where are the fines and investigations before Congress?

Mike ignores this yet will not hesitate to publish 1 complaint on a Tundra!

I guess the Japanese workers at the F-150 plant have a hard time reading English right?

Guys
you need to go back to all of the Toyota treads and see the commentary. There is a considerable amount of unneccessary bashing of Toyota.
If you want the Toyota guys to start leaving the Ford, Chev, and Ram thrreads alone, then leave their threads alone.
If one is fair game than all the treads are fair game.

Back on topic.

I do agree that there can be a greater risk of problems if you put all of your engineering eggs in one basket. Common engineering and common parts throughout a line may save money but what if something is designed or manufactured wrong?
We've already seen it with some recalls. Ford's cruise control switch and toyota's brake pedal come to mind.
Experts say that huge industry wide recalls will become more common due to shared parts.

Is it all bad?
No.
Ford's global platform strategy seems to be working well for them.
This strategy will work for GMC as long as it doesn't turn into a cookie cutter process with the only difference among brands being the badge on the hood.

Wow!

GOV'T MOTORS CHEERS CHINESE COMMUNIST MOVIE...

"Along with concern over China's ownership of trillions of dollars of U.S. debt, it is truly troubling that an American company financially supported now by the U.S. taxpayer is happily promoting Communist propaganda that glosses over the atrocities of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. What's next for GM? Selling military vehicles for the Chinese to threaten their own people with?"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/may/17/gm-sponsors-and-celebrates-soon-be-released-chi-co/

Look how much the Volt is worth after 3 years. That sux!

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/17/chevy-volt-may-be-worth-only-17-000-after-36-months/

oxi-

As flattered as I am for you to think that I am really Mike Levine, I am sorry to disappoint you.

I am sure that Mike Levine is insulted by you thinking that we are the same person,

Trust me, we are two separate beings. One highly respected (Mike L.) and one just fighting the good fight (me).

Mark-

Thank you for making my blood boil! I appreciate it! ;-)

I agree that there is unnecessary bashing of Toyota, still the largest manufacturer of vehicles on the planet and not owned by we, the people. I never owned a foreign car or truck in my life until my wife retired her 1992 Towncar (bought new) and bought a 2008 Jap-built Highlander Limited AWD. Best vehicle we have ever owned, bar none! That excellent experience motivated me to retire my 2006 F150 (bought new) and buy a 2011 Tundra SR5 DC 5.7, the best truck I have ever owned in 64 years of living. The engineering behind these two vehicles beats anything that GM has offered us in the past. Maybe in the future GM can come up to par with the foreigners. We'll see because only time will tell. Just like time (history) told us how bad domestic vehicles haven been over the past forty years. That's why they lost market-share and GM went bankrupt. Chrysler ceased to be an American company when Daimler bought them and is currently owned and operated by Fiat, last I checked an Italian (foreign) company, like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. Let's hope GM engineering improves so they sell more cars and pay back we, the people, for the bail outs, hand outs and nationalization. That would be my most sincere wish. But between you and me, I don't think it will happen. Nothing can erase the mistakes and shortcoming of the past because there was a mass exodus away from the domestic manufacturers to the foreigners. Once you lose a customer, they gone.........

@ Mark - ouch!
Capitalism at its finest.
GMC sells more vehicles in China than the USA.
The new GM - Government Motors (for) Comrades.

Interesting report, Mike. I wish GM well. I've always wanted a Chevrolet pickup and I still think they are the best looking trucks on the road.

I envy you guys who are getting over 200,000 miles on your American vehicles. I've never made it that far with any of mine, but my first four Toyotas all did. At 230,000 miles, my current Avalon has lower oil consumption than any American car I've ever owned at any point in its life.

This year I went pickup shopping. I was alarmed at the number of Chev/GM pickups in my price range that advertised rebuilt transmissions, like that was a selling feature. Every one I looked at had rust starting or advanced in the rocker panels, as did all the F150s. I ended up buying a 2002 Tundra. Even here in salty Minnesota, its rocker panels are clean and it passed its recall frame inspection with no issues. I wish it was a Chevy. Maybe some day they'll build the one I want.

@oxi were you right or wrong about the '97 taco having direct injection? just start there. and don't say you were confused over which 'direct injection' people mean, if you were confused, then it was your mistake and you were wrong to start with your toyota stuff again. No one, and I mean no one, cares about the fact that you love toyota. it's a good thing to find a company you really love. People are bothered by the fact that you MURDER other story threads with all your crazy talk. and other people are guilty too, but you stand out because you accuse the reporter (Mike L) of being biased and you can never, ever, be wrong about anything toyota. they're perfect! but you are wrong, and lots of us respect Mike Levine and his website, and you tend to contribute less than nothing when you post. It seriously ruins it for me. Please, Please, start posting things that contribute, inspire, create thoughts among others, SOMETHING.

My 1968 Ford Mustang G.T. fastback has over 240,000 miles.

My parents have a 1987 Jeep Cherokee that has over 230,000 miles.

My 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited has 170,000 miles.

American all the way!

Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq8wbXAR4ZQ

So that's what the inside of my dyno room looks like! I could use the air jack to move my wagon around in the driveway when I'm doing yard work.

@Mark,
We have a GM vehicle (about 10 years old). We’ll be buying a new vehicle in the not too distant future.

We will NEVER, not under any circumstance, buy another GM car or truck. NEVER.

they already prove they have a good technology,,,,,just look the dmax..

LMFAO!

Aluminum engines represent the new age by their light weight. Cast Iron engines are reliable due to their ability to distribute heat more effectively. I wonder if you could get an Aluminum engine block and coat it in an Iron layer.

With that in mind, Direct Injection is the way to go.

Pushrods always had a place in my heart, however, DOHC are more efficient (all the while less reliable). I would probably choose a GM Pushrods with VVT any day.

I guess reliability and efficiency don't come together well.

@oxi, the 97 Tacoma was built by General Motors at NUMMI.
Nice story, GM has the best engines in the world and the best trucks without a doubt. They are proven to be the longest lasting trucks on the road. Maybe one day Ford will be able to catch them but it's not likey. Chevy gas engines have ran for one million miles in numerous pick ups. Ford had to have rebuilt engines to make it to a million miles
http://youtu.be/YdXmIT1oa5U

I think it is quite interesting that all the right wing nut job redneck teabaggers who are as American as the KKK attack the one company that literally saved the USA from the Japanese and Nazi's during WW2.

http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/1942,_Production_Goes_to_War

They all also praise Ford who's war effort was 1/10 th's of GMs. Got news for you uneducated rubes, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota...all car manufactures are in China. GM sells the most because they offer the best product. You history failures are also to stupid to realize that in the race to get the Chinese off their bikes and in cars the price of everything from fuel, plastic, metals, and rubber will go up 500% in a few years. Keep sitting on the rusty tail gate of your ford eating turnips.

@todd

I would rather sit on a rusty Ford tailgate than a brand new GM tailgate.

@Oxi
Your an idiot...I'm sorry but you are. You and Bob seem to have growing things in common with each other. My problum with you is not your love for Toyota, everyone has the right to choose what brand of car/truck they buy. My issue with you is that you SET YOURSELF UP to be attacked by Ford/GM/Chrysler fans, and then you turn around and act all butthurt as if you had nothing to do with anything. Its like throwing rocks at a Lion, Your the moron throwing rocks TRYING to piss the Lion off, and the fans of the domestic brands are the Lion! And when they jump on your ass for being a total dip$hit you act like their attack was unwarrented and unprevoked! WRONG!

If you don't want people F**king with Toyota then don't F**k with their favroite brands either!

Aluminum has a higher strength to weight.
Iron has a higher strength to volume.
So when one isn't attempting to have minimum interbore spacing, then using aluminum is advantageous. (see BMW M3 inline6 engine-S54. 87mm bore with 91mm spacing. Audi, without liners, has an aluminum block 3.2 V6 with 85.5mm bore with 90mm spacing.)

Aluminum has a higher specific heat capacity, and has quicker heat conduction, but a lower emissivity.

Iron block engines are on the way out, permanently.

@Nate,

Ford still has not answered to why they hid their safety defect for years and just tried to get away with it again!

I demand an investigation like the one Toyota went through but then again the BIASED media and federal government that has a conflict of interest by owning one of Toyota's main competitors here, we will not see fair treatment.

We will see U.S. brands get preferential treatment from the federal government because they are in a closet protectionism mode but they do not want to admit that...

In other words, fair and honest reporting has gone by the way side for favoritism just like the federal government!

@oxi: I guess you forgot about the investigation and congressional hearing that Ford went through in 2000 for the Explorer's tire problems.

oxi, the difference is that no one died as a result of fords problem, and there was no company wide attempt to cover up the potential problem. Ford has recalled the trucks it was ordered to recall, just as GM has in recent years.

Please, Please, Please show us one documented case where Ford or GM or Ram got preferential treatment by the US government when it came to recalls. Was the investigation into Toyota based on a sensationalized problem that was not as bad as made out to be? Yes, but for goodness sakes man, let it go. Toyota still sells more cars than anyone, and for good reason, they make great cars. They dont however make that great of pickups. No amount or racism, or fear or anything else you complain about accounts for the lagging sales of toyota trucks versus their cars.

@Nate,

It's the other way around! The constant Toyota bashing is from ignorant rednecks or something the like that are jealous or do not understand so they bash and bash YET they never owned one or even driven one!

They are good little sheep, the media tells them to jump and they respond how high!

You should always question what is published unless you were actually there! Society today is so short on attention and memory span, the bashing proves this!

If you stop, ask questions you will understand the charade the federal government and owner of GM targeted Toyota for GM's gain. Their witnesses were bought off and had no idea what they were talking about. Congress looked like they were bought off from the UAW, it's called campaign finance and buying votes in Congress is legal with PAC's, etc...the UAW and GM for that matter and Toyota all play this game!

Everything the federal government accused has come up to be rather reaching at best but the damage was done with the weak minded to benefit GM. In fact bringing the CEO of Toyota to the GM hearings was a stunt to get sound bites off to the horrible media (nice doggy want a treat) and somehow put a Japanese face to Toyota while GM struggles here.

The fact is GM imports 1/3 of the vehicles they sell here and will be the first to sell Chinese made cars in the U.S.

GM does not care for the U.S. worker or those 4 plants equivalent to the 1/3 they import would have remained open in the U.S.

Toyota bashing, for what? They have invested billions and built many, many plants here the last 20 years, what the hell is wrong with that while GM shuts doors and moves overseas yet has the nerve to ask for a bailout to continue their horrible ways!

GM deserves the bashing not the MOST respected auto company in the world! Toyota was tops among auto companies on the survey of brand value where the big 3 did not have one in the top 100!

@Michael,

You want evidence of a cover-up and preferential treatment:

"Under pressure from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford has agreed to recall an additional 1.2 million pickup trucks because the driver’s air bag may inadvertently deploy."

Ford did not want to recall, the NHTSA FORCED them to recall more!

"But in a series of letters, the agency accused Ford of skewing the data and said its review found the pickups had the largest number of inadvertent deployments in the agency’s history."

Ford once again manipulating the data and the NHTSA caught them!

"In that letter Ford did not concede there was a safety defect. Doing so could create a problem for the automaker because in 2006 it made a midmodel year change to the wiring on the air bags. That indicates it was aware of a problem. Under federal regulations, when an automaker knows of a safety defect, it must notify the agency within five working days or face civil penalties."

Ford knew of the problem, changed it and tried to hide all of the other pickups it made. Ford should be investigated for this and possible other shady dealings!

Have we seen those investigations before Congress or massive fines yet?

Nope! It's called preferential treatment or looking the other way. It stems from the conflict of interest of the federal government owning U.S. based auto companies!

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/ford-widens-f-150-recall-by-1-2-million-trucks/


@Mike,

That was well before of the massive communications revolution we have seen lately.

If that happened in today's communication savy society, I really would not know how society would respond...

I guess staging fake accidents, a bunch of anti-Ford bashers on forums that never owned one but just hated Ford, media would just slam Ford without hard evidence to feed into society's hysteria and lack of understanding and so forth...

ok, and where did this happen during normal driving operations? I have owned and driven f150's for years, and I have NEVER had a problem with them! This is all a fabricated lie perpetuated by the media and all the anti ford people out there to smear fords good name. I can attest that there is NOTHING wrong with fords trucks because I drive one and have never had a problem! Unless you drive one you shouldn't speak about this issue as you dont know what is going on, you are just IGNORANT and letting your HATRID for ford blind you.

Isnt that a valid response oxi? YOu said that when there were toyota recalls. Ford might or might not have covered it up, but there was a minor refresh in 2006 on the f150s, they changed the bumpers and some of the wiring, thus making it possible that there was no coverup...

And Ford still simply recalled there trucks, they didnt recall their floormats, or do the same dance for 3 years that toyota did

@ oxi
when it comes to Toyota it is the government's fault or the agency, when it comes to Ford it is all their fault not the government's or the agency how does that make sence

Todd: I am a big supporter of American Prd. owner of 2 Chevys 2011, 1964, Dodge 2003, 2 Harleys 2006, 2009, I buy all my jeans, from a small com. in the south called Diamond Gusset, I buy my shoes from Red Wing or New Balance, every theing I buy isn't made in America unfortunatly, but I try. So I must assure you I an NOT a red wing nut job, redneck, ever even givin the time of day to anyone in the KKK, I am however, a big believer in what the Tea Party has to say about the way the left wing nut jobs are doing too this Great Country of ours, sociallism has never worked, never will, so take you ideas to some other forum, please. I do belive I heard somewere how the term Red Neck came from, something to do with the war of independence, the militia in some of the W.V., Tenn., Alabama, Kentucky areas, wore red bandanas around there neck becouse they could not aford uniforms, and they wanted to let our side whos side they were on. I only use the term in respect as so. It would be great if everyone knew the difference.

@dan, its because of all the IGNORANT HATRID that people have for FORD!!!!

@ sandman4X4
well put sir, we try to do the same buying everything we can that is made in America, but it is like i said yesterday i cannot bring my self to buy a GMC before Toyota, i have a family and safety is the main concern and i feel very safe in my F-150 and with these rating it just tells me that Toyota is a little safer than a GMC

Todd, you're an idiot.

"In all, the Allies were supplied with more than a million fighting vehicles by Ford operations in the United States, Canada, Britain, India, South Africa and New Zealand."

http://www.historynet.com/henry-ford-helped-lead-american-world-war-ii-production-efforts.htm

sandman 4X4-

Great statement!

I hope everyone comes around and sees that Oxi is right. Keep preaching oxi, eventually these thick-headed domestic fanbois will realize that Toyota is the undisputed master of engineering and manufacturing.

It's clear that the government is waging a covert war against Toyota and propping up the domestics at the same time!!! Only an idiot would believe otherwise! Millions die every year from Ford's faulty airbags that constantly go off, but the government COVERS IT UP!

And yes, Oxi's Tacoma has direct injection, direct ignition and direct ingestion! GM is SO FAR BEHIND even though they STOLE 189 gabillion trillion dollars from the tax payers. I still remember the night they came into my house and raided my piggy bank! Toyotas are so advanced the Tacomas even came with an iPhone back in 1997. It took the stupid Americans over a DECADE to finally catch up!

You should all listen to Oxi. He is 100% right. And stop the bashing, it hurts our feelings :(

@heyoxi,

If you don't like, please grab your purse and leggings and leave.

Thank you!

As a life-long Ford and Chevy owner who has defected to Toyota only recently, I have to say that oxi is right and that he makes more sense than the foreign-bashers who can only wish that the domestic car makers will find their way back to profitability without the continued financial support of the tax payers. This new GM powertrain engineering center should improve GM's powertrains, WE HOPE, so that GM will sell more vehicles world-wide which leads to us getting our money back. But a note of caution here because GM's biggest market is China, since GM has not been able to break even in the US market for decades. I'm all for GM moving its headquarters to China and sending the profits home to mama, like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. have been doing for years. It makes more sense to pay Chinese auto workers and make a profit than pay UAW members and go bankrupt.

Most of the people including Oxi have valid points.
The problem is that those valid points get lost amongst the paranoia, political ideology, and mis(dis)information(fancy words for bullsh-t) being put foreward on both sides.

Corporations will try to get away with what ever they can.
Ford does it,
GMC does it,
Chrysler does it,
and the "all mighty" Toyota does it.

Lately, it has been Toyota's turn with its pants around the ankles.

You guys seem to have forgotten or maybe weren't old enough to remember the dark decade of the early '70's to the early 80's were the domestics produced crap and expected us to be happy to eat it.
That is where the Japanese gained their foothold in "the america's".
They've all made crappy products.
They've all made good products.
They'll continue to make mistakes, and hope no one notices.
and we will continue to passionately argue over it.

Great article Mike, too bad the TROLL (oxi.. as usual) has to come in and spout his Toyota nonsense. Seriously, ban his IP range.

The issue was prior to the charade by the owners of GM upon Toyota, you would have typical flareups of pickup loyalists like the always never ending Chevy vs Ford camp.

After GM's attacks upon Toyota and the massive showing upon the media, all of a sudden you had many out there that never even driven a Toyota before making such mis-guided comments and general statements.

This was well above the few that are still living in the 1940's and will not realize Japan is one of our closest allies!

It was not fair and not right and yes I called them haters because of their blind hatred for a company they never even bought a product from.

I have driven Toyota pickups for 20 years! I know more than the federal government and even this website about Toyota's.

It's ok to have some fun bashing like the old Chevy vs Ford camps but you have to admit, the level of bashing by the posers on this website and elsewhere did get out of control and was un-warrented and un-justified to the point of racism/blind ignornace/just plain hatred.

That I do not tolerate and sure I will defend against stupid attacks like that because in the past 20 years I have had little issues with Toyota pickups that would warrent such attacks.

Toyota did not get where they have by being such an awful company. GM was similar and great until they went bankrupt and begged for a bailout and assistance to go after Toyota!

I do not tolerate babies! You have to earn your spot and GM did not thus needed federal assistance at around the same time the federal government was targeting Toyota on GM's behalf.

Hey, I want fair competition and not what GM is getting and getting away with. They need to earn their spot and not get it handed to them! (GM getting #1 after this year)

I hope this new GM powertrain center does GM sales around the globe some good. I know all about the problems of the past with the Detroit vehicles having experienced them myself first hand. And since I am only a recent convert to Toyota vehicles I have gotten an earful from longtime 'import' owners who initially started out with the Jap-built Honda, Toyota and Nissan products. Those people were so impressed with the quality and value they received for their money, way back then, that they bought them again, but this time the vehicles were made in the US. Many of these people have told me (and I believe them) that something was lost in the translation when they started building them over here. But from my own experience with Toyota, our vehicles have been perfect. If this new GM powertrain engineering center can come up with better and longer-lasting running gear that is on par with the foreigners, so much the better. After all, we want GM to be profitable so that we can get our bail out money back. I have my doubt that will happen with just US sales. Market share is too small, UAW burden too high and too expensive. I think GM needs to focus to a much greater extent on the emerging markets of Asia, Russia and South America. That's where the money is, and that's where they have to compete head-to-head with Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. That will be a tough row to hoe because those guys won't be sitting idly by waiting for GM to catch up to them.

Oxi I don't know were to begin, and can't type all that well so I can sum up my feeling on the matter in 1 word, ok 2 Pearl Harbor, if you just have to mention the 40's, I to have also owned toyotas, one the other side of the coin, nothing but very expensev trouble. I do not make uniformd jugements, have never been predgidous against any thing, but cold woman and warm beer, I love my country, have served her, and wish her well, that goes for busines and government, I also believe in God, an to do unto other as you would do unto yourself. I do agree with the statements you made about the unions, but to cut your nose off in spite of your face is just stupid

oxi - shut up.

@ Sandman4x4
Pearl Harbor - December 7th 1941.
A dark day in USA history,
but really?
Does that rule out German cars too?
Are you going to stop driving cars/trucks because of imported oil from the Middle East?
GMC paid for a Chinese Communist propaganda movie-
Are you going to sell your Chevy's?
The Alamo -
That rules out anything from Mexico.
Italy was a German Allie -
That rules out Chrysler and anything Italian.
The war of Independance-
That rules out anything British.
There was a little know conflict between USA and "British" Canada in 1812-
So much for buying Skidoo's.

Have I left anyone out?

@ mike levine

hey doesn't remember what happened in 2000 for he was born in 1997 haha



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