RamRunner Vs. SVT Raptor is Coming!!!

Duel in the Desert 1a II
For those who may not have heard yet, we have a special treat coming. Not too long ago, we were able to get a brand new 2012 Raptor and one of Mopar's special RamRunners, that has all the options. 

We know this isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison since the Mopar truck is basically an aftermarket collection of high-performance suspension, body, and wheel and tire parts and the Raptor has everything the best SVT engineers could throw at it in its development, but this is still the head-to-head shootout a lot of truck enthusiasts have been waiting for. 

And, as you might imagine, we wanted to go all out. You'll get more information soon but let's just say for this test, we spared no expense (within reason, of course). Look for more info from our "Duel In the Desert" ultimate desert shootout in the coming weeks. 

 

Comments

@Ted: Nope, never said that. But atleast the Hemi (current design out was designed 2 years BEFORE the 6.2, makes alot more POWER PER INCH and BROADER POWER BAND. Now I now that's not important to alot of you, you just say "give me a bigger (and in this case HEAVIER) engine. Ford is so behind on the 6.2. Sure it puts out more power! It would be so easy for Ram to just put the 6.4 (since it already exists) in a truck and it would smoke the 6.2 in not just total power, but power per inch, and actually have a broad power band! You ever seen a 6.2 dyno? according to Ford's head to head and K&N, its not so great. But it's the biggest, and you Raptor buyers only have one choice! And same for that overpriced Harley! Oh, that 6.4 Hemi will eat less gas...when you don't want it to eat gas! Not that you all care....endless supply of money...

And Ted, looks like the only thing you think about is how fast a truck can run through the desert? There should be more to this contest then that! I have pointed out, in Fords favor, they have a lower crawl ratio, that's a point for Ford! The Ram has what looks to be better approach angles, point for Ram. Ground clearance? And I am guessing, if you put this kit on an Lariet interior matching Ram, you would spend more on the Ram. But at the same time, the kit can also be put on an ST Ram? Not everybody wants all that fancy stuff. That's testers choice there, how they want to award in value. Maybe they might test turning radius. If the Ford should get interior points, shouldn't Ram get some for having a roomier cab, atleast in this case, the quad does compared to Fords old design cab. And Ted, what did I say about a RAM being OVER- EQUIPPED??

Yeah, the Hemi isn't quite like a 1953 331 CID HEMI, but it still has one intake valve on the top, and one exhaust valve on the bottom, no side by side. Weighs less then a a 6.2, and is still years ahead of the Fords 6.2! The 6.2, I get a laugh out of you folks that love it! That's like loving a 460, only cause it's bigger! Can't make that much per inch and make a broad powerband, so just make it bigger! LMAO!

Dodobreeder says his Raptor can launch ski-doos and boats good, great! Now see what it will do at 70% it rated max tow? Run it up some mountain passes, or right here on HWY 65 from Little Rock Arkansas to Springfield Missouri! That 6.2 will lay down! Ted, I never said anything about the Ram winning based on engine alone. That won't happen. It can use a lower crawl ratio, and that will be changed in 8 months. When the new 8 speed comes out. Or it could be some better if they went with the 6 speed in gas 2500s. Course the dealers don't hardly stock a 2012 Hemi 2500, so we will never find the improvements of the differant gear box. Just like the Ram dealers hardly order the ones with 265/70 17 tires, they think we mostly want the 33" tires on 20" wheels. But that's another story!

The 6.2 Ford, inch per inch, is a turd! If the Hemi made that amount of power, it would only have 396 ft pounds torque, instead of 407, at 500 rpm sooner!

Ram Runner sucks, looks like chit, and it is overpriced. Get over it.

Love both of these truck! Regardless of the winner, they are both winners! The only loser here is the manufacturer that can not bring one to the table.

Toyota Tundra?

What has Ram brought to the table? A bunch of parts you have to finish and install youself. Big deal.

TRX4 Tom | May 14, 2012 11:18:16 AM,

we all use our trucks in our own differing ways. What matters to one guy may not matter to the next. People should buy what they want, need, can afford and believe in.

Tom is right, my Raptor is a great big toy. I love it when I'm feeling frisky and the Raptor satisfies. But I miss the luxury-like smoothness, ride and handling of my 2007 Tundra 5.7 equally as much.

I should have kept the Tundra but the trade-in was just too damn good and the dealer sold it the next day without doing anything to it. Goes to show, there is a market for 5-year old Tundras, at least in California.

Taking a trip from Twentynine Palms to Camp Pendleton on I-10 is not the same in the Raptor as it was in the Tundra. There's a lot to be said for each of them. I've owned them both. Each has its own qualities.

TRX4, you just spent 5 paragraphs telling us how the 5.7 is light years ahead of the old boat anchor dead before arrival 6.2 but your final jab to really bring home your point is so anti-climatic it's not even funny. Ram is blah, blah, blah that if it were the same displacement as the Ford it would make...11 MORE LB-FT!!!!!! Wow. Given your description of the stone age Ford to your space age Ram i would have expected a lot more.

And the torque curve looks just as broad to me...

http://www.f150forum.com/f38/torque-curves-all-motors-but-4-6l-2v-110234/

Love both of these truck! Regardless of the winner, they are both winners! The only loser here is the manufacturer that can not bring one to the table.

@Frank, exactly. Both the Raptor and RamRunner kick butt. Where's the Chevy? Oh ya, there isn't one. lol..

I really think Ford should consider offering the EcoBoost in the Raptor...makes a ton of sense from a weight-savings standpoint.

As for this contest, I'm sure it will likely go to the Raptor... especially if they test in a mix of environments like Lou mentioned.

@speedy1 - thanks for the dyno links. The 5.3 looks like a chihuahua at a pitbull fight. Even Ford's 5.4 kills it in the torque department. When you look at the torque curves of the "big guns" you can tell who Ford was gunning for with the 6.2. It's torque curve is similar to the 6.2 Chevy but has just a tad more. Ford needs to join the 21st century and put twin cams and VVT etc on that sucker. They should switch over to the same CGI material used in the 6.7. If Chevy comes out with the rumored 7.0 or Ram puts the 6.4 in a truck, the 6.2 Ford will be dead in the water.

Where's the Toyota Tundra? Where's the Nissan Titan? Where's the factory Ram? Oh, that's right, there aren't any. lol.

Dodge RAM won baja 1000 in class 8 trucks with a v10 mopar.
Dodge RAM dominating KORE off road racing all classes.

GUTS!

GLORY!

RAM!

Hey there Speedy 1, did you even look at that? The 6.2 Makes more at the start cause its bigger then it falls to where the Hemi catches it damn near, not bad for over 30 cubic inches less! And 6.2, yeah, it keeps going on the high side. Ford has that same dyno numbers on their head to head, you actually see what % it makes at certain rpms, thanks to Ford for pointing out their dinosour engine is rather peaky! Now if you really feel frisky, go to K&N's web and look at their dyno runs and see what a better built 6 something liter can do: the 6.4 Hemi, blows the crap outta that 6.2! It's a far closer comparison, a 6.4 to a 6.2, it's only 13 more inchs compared with 32 or so more for the 6.2 vs, 5.7 (really 5.66 liter) Now, that's also a dyno run in a Challeger, so if in a truck such as a Ramrunner, take off some power for more drivetrain losses, bigger tires and longer driveshadt and rearend takes more power to turn. Whatever the deal, it won't bring it down from the Challengers 422 or K&N dyno'd torque to the same dyno of a Raptor 338, (LMAO!) And once again Speedy, you also missed the point, the Hemi gets to max torque and maintains say 90 or 95% alot longer then the 6.2 Phord and does it 500 rpm sooner! Remember the days you Ford folks were screaming "the (first gen 5.7 hemi) hemi is a race engine, blah blah blah, high rpm" Now you Ford folks have a high rpm engine, but ya'll aint aint bitch'n no more! Whatever! Old heavy ass Ford engine!

Dodge ram dominating TORC not KORE.My bad.

In 1951 chrysler started the horsepower wars with their first v8.
The HEMI All others have been playing catch up ever since.

Dodges first v8 was a HEMI also.

Today the HEMI is up to 8,000 horsepower.

^^ ok thanks Chrysler Bob!

Chevy is in full hibernation.

Not exactly. The new Chevys are out testing. Where are new Tundras? Nissans?

@TRX Tom- Are you bragging up the same 5.7 that the 6.2 destroyed in the 3/4 ton uphill tow test? Just wanted to be sure.

Lou- You're welcome.

TRX4- Yes, the 6.2 has a weird looking torque curve. And it makes more power than the 5.7 - which it should since it's bigger! I agree.

My point was that you're arguing how much more advanced/efficient/better the Hemi is compared to the 6.2L and it simply isn't. The hp/liter of the 5.7L isn't light years beyond the 6.2L that you're so fond of pointing out and I wouldn't say the torque curve is any better - the Ford has a peak but it can because it's already making the Dodge max before the peak.

There are tons of advanced engine technologies that both engines are lacking. The 6.2L isn't the embarrassment you make it out to be and the 5.7L certainly isn't the epitome of elegant engine design either - they're both average engines - which is what we should expect for a mass produced truck engine.

And no thanks, not feeling frisky as you put it, I won't be going to the K and N site. I think I'll rely on SAE J1349 certified power numbers that the auto companies publish to base my opinions on vs the chassis dyno numbers of a company trying to promote their product. I'm sure the manufacturers did't leave 20hp on the table in their air induction system that K and N is kind enough to find for you.

If you want to bring up the 6.4L (and I don't know why since it's not available in a Ram regardless of how much you want it to be) don't forget these quotes from pickuptrucks.com...

“I’d love to have a 6.4-liter engine [for trucks],” said Joe Veltri, Chrysler vice president of product planning, at the 2010 NTEA Work Truck Show. “But it’s designed for performance, not low-end torque. It’s designed for off-the-line 0-to-60 times.”

The 6.4-liter V-8 was officially confirmed last year at Chrysler’s 2010-14 business plan presentation after earlier rumors about the engine’s development.

Fred Diaz, president and CEO of the Ram brand, said then that Ram Heavy Duty pickups could receive the engine.

"We anticipate the 6.4-liter engine will go into the Heavy Duty Ram," Diaz said then. "It's an appropriate engine for our trucks."

But engineering challenges appear to have stymied the effort.

“We’ve talked to the powertrain guys,” Veltri said. “It’s a struggle to recrank that engine to make it a truck engine.”

So you can quote all the numbers you want in its car based application but I have a feeling that if it ever actually did show up in the Ram you'd be getting a very different beast. And don't forget the premium fuel to get your 6.4L numbers.

@Benchimus: Like I been telling people, like ol Cory, it did it with gear. Why don't look up the gear ratio in that F-250 and see it is about a 4 to 1 1st gear, and as I have said, that makes a huge differance. The Ram had a 3 to 1 1st gear, and the added weight of that Super Duty was also more then made up for by the fact it had 4.3 gears and a much bigger engine too. I have said it before, I will say it again, the starting ratios in the Fords make them look good. Ram changed theirs up some for 2012, it still isn't as much as Fords max. Of course, Ford doesn't run a 4.10 gear, so they let them go higher to a 4.3 even with more engine and more 1st gear. Hard to get an even comparo, they all have 3.7 gears too, but ya'll don't want to read about that? Oh, that's right, the 6.2 needs gear! It would be a total slug F-250 with 3.7 gears and don't they even make them 3.5s? For bragging rights? That not the kinda engine I would want, but keep loving it!

@TRX- Are the trannys geared the same? Maybe the Rams trans is geared different. And I wouldnt say I love the 6.2. Think Id rather have the V10 but it is what it is.

I am a chevy fan but i really like both of these trucks . i dont care who wins but can wait to see what they throw at these trucks

@Benchimus: No, the Ram RFE 545 has a 3 to 1 first, and in all these acceleration contests on here it is the main thing holding the Hemi back on these contests. The 1st gear is not near as low (numericaly high) as the Fords, the Tundras, the GMs, they all get it moving quicker with the lower 1st gear. And every one of those gear boxs has a shift to 2nd gear that drops less rpm then the Ram, the Ford? Whatever your shift rpm is, say 5600, you will be at 59% or so of that rpm in 2nd. The Ram? Almost 56% So now, the Ram hits a numerically lower 2nd gear, at a lower rpm then the Ford. The Tundra? Much closer to 70% in every gear changes, and it makes the Tundra look good (not dissing the I Force, the Hemi makes more power, and broader, it just gets it's start maybe 300 rpm after the I-Force. If you take a look at the speeds posted in the HD Shootout 2010, you would see, the Ram got going good in 1st gear, but the 2nd gear was just not low enough to pull really hard. Therefore, it fell on it's face. Same think in the 2008 LD Shootout. I never said the Hemi made great gobs of power, but it will do 85% or 90% max torque over a much wider rpm band. That equals better driveability! Sure, I admitt the trans aint the best for these speed contests, but for those of us that run down the road at 55-65 towing, the Ram 545 trans works fine. You want to race, go run the Ford and GM trans. How else could the 5.3 Chevy hauling 9000 or whatever at Davis Dam be so close to the Ram to 60 MPH, but yet lose by so much over the total 3 miles? Easy! The Chevy and Ford trans gears let it hit 60 at almost max rpm, while the Rams lower (numerically) gear in 2nd might only have it revving 4000 or so, also with tallest tires! Yet the Hemi almost caught the Ecoboost, narrowed a 11 deficit to 3.5 or so. I would like to see Ram re run that with an 8 speed, cause the times they are a changing!

as oxi wisely said prior to the shoot-out...

You guys crack me up!

I applaud these pickups on the market but where is GM's?!

How many years before they finally came up with a turn-key full-size off-road capable pickup (real-one) for those that can afford one!

I just think their size and weight hinders them in tight spots and soft terrain as well as rocks at slower speeds though would you want to take such an expensive pickup full speed into the mud/water/logging trails?!

Before I would commit mortgaging the home to get one, I would see how their nice suspensions handle the weight and off-roading on/off the street over the long-term and miles, especially in harsh climates like winters for a few years!

How much maintenance wil be needed to keep them fresh after a few winters? Flashy suspensions like that need attention in all climates like a high maintenance gurlfriend!


@TRX4 Tom; playing devils advocate here but when your talking about power per cupic inch doesnt Fords 3.5 have them all beat? You talke about tecnology, i think a twin turbo V6 that out preforms a 5.7 v8. And it is my understanding the Davis Dam is one of the longest / steepest grades in the country I don't think many people tow up grades like that very often. Tom you keep talking figuartive claims on transmissions tire size etc. Your complaint should be with RAM and not about ford having different gear ratios, which Ford did to meet a combination of federal laws like CAFE and consumer demands. Whos to say that the Dodge 8 speed will not have a lower gear ratio for fuel economy like GM did when it went from 4 speed to 8, my 05 Suburban 1500 had a 5.3 with 4.10 today a 1500 suburban can be optioned with a 3.42. Makes me wounder how an Fx4 with ecoboost and 4.10s (yes that is an option) would do against a RAM in a towing compitition.
Addtionaly As a Raptor owner i would never dream of towing with that suspension, one the cost if a damaged anything is high, second it would sag like crazy without airbags to help it out. On the Tire thing Tom you can buy a Truck with aftermarket wheels an tires if you need a different configuratiion for towing (I think if there where such a pakage then Dodge/RAM would have offered it so as not to be bestted by a V6). And Yes the ecoboost and HEMI are comperable engines similar HP and Trq and have about the same premium, and are the volume sellers. one is NA the other is not.

Too bad they didn't get a Tacoma...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/oxi3/DSCI0025-1.jpg

@ Team OXI
Vehicle 2010 5.4l Raptor
Location: Mountians of Utah
Miles 38000
Driving style: Off Road,/Harsh / Dusty/Agressive
Problems: Tire Pressure Sensor Fualt

If you regularly wash a vehicle during the winter or after a trip to the salt flats or desert you will midigate any corosion concerns (the ground has high salt content in the desert lots of corosion problembs if your not careful. ) IDK how long the suspension would last had to replace several compnants on my chevy. Is't Oxis susspension Flashy and it appeared that his springs had a signifiganct amount of corosion especialy for a vehicle he rarly uses in winter. Addtionaly how many full size trucks have you seen on the road with a bad susspension, i have seen more old toyotas with bad suspensions that pick ups from the big 3 combined. Many used full size are used by landscaping and construction companies. and they are still going strong.

Read this before making an IGNORANT comment about oxi's truck:

http://tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184384

Learn about off-road baja suspensions and corrosion before you talk crap!

LMAO why the same comments always on the Raptor can't do any real offroading? I believe desert offroading is as real as it gets! The Raptor was not built for swamps and logging roads in the forrest. Its a pure bread desert runner, this is common sense. If you want to do serious swamp and logging trails everyone knows you get a Jeep for that. Not a pickup truck! Ignorance is bliss I guess. I will stick to offoading in Glamis were you need V8 horse power and big tires and suspension.

This is what the Raptor was built for..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hLTSz1kK7Q

These are the people who buy Raptors..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPm6xsbDqwc

These are the people who don't buy Raptors...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj3IG98YuFg

Case closed!!

@Mikes Fx4 I have acctualy taken the Rapotr on the Trail shown in the bottom link the Timppanugas (SP is wrong) is extremely beautiful, you can go around the big rocks on these trails , the Raptor does just fine, you dont have to drive like the Jeep guys do and Aim at the biggest rock. I also saw a stock 00-06 Tahoe on the trail. BWT the area Around American Fork is one of the most beautiful places in the country.

@Carilloskis
I never said the Raptor wasn't capable. The Jeeps are just more practicle in those locations while the Raptor is more practicle for the desert. SVT developed it in the California desert mountains (Borrego Springs). I just don't get people saying it can't offroad compared to smaller offroad vehicles in close qaurters when thats common sense stating the obvious when it was designed not too. Its like me saying aww your jeep or Taco sucks because it can't do 80mph over 6' woops so it can't do any REAL offroading, your just a 3mph trail rider..lol See doesn't that sound ignorant?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xfrbk3jovE

MikesFX4 - good points. You buy a vehicle that will meet the broadest or narrowest focus that you decide you want or need. I'd rather have a full sized truck and have quads or dirt bikes for the offroad play time. I like 4x4 trucks for the luxury of having that capacity. I've had compacts and full sized trucks and I find the full sized trucks are more stable in the winter and on gravel roads. I used to play offroad with trucks but not any more. I like the Raptor and Ram Runner. They'd be great for the power lines and logging roads where I live but carrying capacity and fuel range would be a limiting factor with any truck with suspension mods turning 35's. I'd probably get a Power Wagon (almost bought one) if I wanted a serious offroad truck.

Mike's Fx4 agreed i got the Raptor over the other two, (still intresed in A Rubicon, 4 runner trail, or Tacoma Baja) because i have not found many places where a full size cannot go abite at a slower speed but lost of loging roads and the desert that allows the raptor to play.

@ Team Oxi
looks like alot of corosion on Oxi's deever springs one of his pics they look black but the first pic he has they look coroded bad.

Hey oxi,

Have you thought of using any undercarrigae protection on your truck? I'd clean it up and coat it with POR-15. Any thoughts on this?

I too am looking forword to this. On a side note,

Dodobreeder,

How have you been. It's been a while since I have seen that name. I remember when you first bought that Toyota, from the other boards we used to frequent. Glad to hear it is treating you well.

Back by popular demand, oxi will be making his return...

Stay tuned for oxi's return...

It will be legendary!

@teamoxi - legendary? Is he going to procede with litigation since the majority of us make fun of his comments?

Oh boy, Pete's coming back (or is back, since team oxi has already gifted us with a few posts). On the other hand, I am very much looking forward to this comparison.

@Lou
Remember, legendary does not by definition necessitate a positive connotation.

He just wants you to be cool and talk trucks. If you just wan't to make fun, don't waste your time.

@that 5.3 guy
Ford cab bring its supercharged Veloci-Raptor which comes from with the 6.2 supercharged and I bet that would overpower and sound way better than that 5.7 supercharged tundra ;)

Scout | May 15, 2012 4:57:44 PM, Hey scout, I, too remember you from the other boards over the years. '73 Scout 345 wasn't it?

Yeah, I told everyone I bought that 2007 Tundra when I bought it. It was a truly great truck! Never had to go to the shop for anything, I took Mr Dundett's advice and ran 10-40 Castrol in it and used Premium gasoline, just like he did in his. Worked as he said it would.

But, after 5 years I wanted to take advantage of that legendary Toyota trade-in value. I checked out a 2012 Tundra 5.7 like my 2007 and liked it. But I am a sucker for big engines and Raptor is the hottest thing going today.

So I test drove a Raptor in Riverside and I was hooked. It is no Tundra in comfort and civility but the Raptor is a boulder-crawling, raw power uncivilized desert-running Baja brute that outgrunts my old Tundra. I still live out in the desert across from the Joshua Tree National Park.

I'm having fun with the Raptor, but I don't drive it to church on Sundays like I did the Tundra.

Hope you're doing well. Best regards.

BTW, I read comments often but rarely post comments myself unless it pertains to what I got.

Don

@08fx4
The VelociRaptor is very nice makes more power than the TRD Supercharged Tundra Crewmax 4x4 but I think do to it’s weight they are about as fast as each other http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/velociraptor-600-sc.html. I do have a lot of respect for the VelociRaptor but it's not for me and before people get up in arms let me explain why. I have always said here at PUTC that I thought the Harley-Davidson Edition should drop the 6.2L and go with a supercharged 5.0L Coyote. The reasons are 1. Imo the Coyote is the best sounding engine in a pickup followed by the Hemi (I am not a big fan of the sound of the Boss). 2. The Coyote is almost a square engine and the 5.7L iforce is a really undersquared engine and the Coyote is paired to the TVS-2300 when the 5.7L iforce is paired to the TVS-1900 so I thought it should make more power and we now know it can. If Ford Racing would sell you something like the Roush supercharger and exhaust and let your vehicle retain its factory warranty then I would consider that a better VALUE than my TRD Supercharged Tundra with TRD True Duals.

@ 5.3 LOL there is a 3/36,000 mile warranty and powertrain. ford dealers that are roush certified ......

http://www.roushperformance.com/parts/F-150-Supercharger-50L-Tuner-Kit-2011-2012.html

http://www.roushperformance.com/parts/F-150-Supercharger-62L-Tuner-Kit-2010-2012.html

Dodobreeder,

Glad to hear you are doing well. Yea it was Scout73 on to old forum's. I don't know why they took them down. Miss the chats with the old crew that was there. I landed on a somewhat new forum. Watched them build it from the ground up. They are just now getting noticed by the manufactures, and getting test cars to do reviews on. You should pop in and check it out. It's kinda crazy there, in a wild west kind of way but there are some good people there. Let me know if you are interested. I don't want to post links unless people want to see them. I'm not sure how it would be taken here, and I don't want to be the one with random spam in my posts.
Have you heard anything new from the old crowd? Or did everyone just kinda disappear when the place shut down?

Scout - You guys might want to take that discussion into the forums or stay on topic. We want to hear your opinions and thoughts, but please only comment about the specified topic in the blog post.

Scout, I'm not on these boards all that much unless I see a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I rarely comment.

I miss the old crowd too. Those were some decent discussions and it appeared to me that none of those guys lied or embellished the facts. I know I learned a lot about my cars from reading what others had to say.

Still have the 2006 Mustang 4.6 GT but traded the AWD Sienna for my wife's new Lexus LS460 Mark Levinson when she retired from 29Palms. Nice car, for the wife. I'm a truck kinda guy. Now I drive a Raptor, LOL all the way as it rattles my teeth driving down the gravel road leading to my house.

Still visit the old sites that are still up. But things change all the time. This site is OK and does feature some decent stories and reviews on pickup trucks but it attracts trolls and BS artists like stink on sh.t.

ttac has gone downhill since Farago left and it became a Canadian site. It's been said that ttac is the standard of the auto boards and closely monitored by the industry but you can't tell it by me.

These days ttac couches its stories so as not to offend anyone even if the truth about the product sucks. It's a real shame. Does a topic really need to be phrased as a question to elicit comments? Or is that the implied disclaimer disavowing ttac's bias toward any side?

Farago made ttac. He was opinionated but most of all he told it like it was, warts and all. The industry hated his narrow @ss but the readers loved reading the unvarnished truth. You know, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Same with bad goods. Bad is bad, no matter how you couch it.

Today the industry loves ttac but the only commenters are the same old BS artists and union-shills with their same old UAW/CAW inspired anecdotes about how great the domestics were, blaming management, blaming their former customers for buying foreign, and never blaming themselves for bringing ruin to the US auto industry with their demand for higher wages and more benefits. As TA would say, "Disgusting!"

I still frequent the old sites and if you know of some decent new ones, post them. The worst that could happen is that you get censored, something that has become increasingly common on sites like the WSJ, Kicking Tires, autoblog, and ttac. Maybe here it is different. Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm really disappointed in the way these auto boards have evolved because now the emphasis seems to be on portraying the domestic manufacturers in a positive light so as not to offend Obama and the UAW. If bad is bad, then bad is bad. A Yugo will never be great by any standard, but a Camry is still the best-selling sedan in America, no matter how the DOT sees Toyota or how the unions envy their success.

Foreign-bashing and trolling is OK on those boards, and that doesn't make sense to me. We each have the option to visit or not to visit these boards. They're privately owned so they can do as they please. And if they want to shill for the unions or Detroit, they can do that. I don't have to read them.

I have lost track of TotallyAmerican, Troy, cubbyfan and the others but I have periodically seen blurbs by Mr dundett, Ike G., highdesertcat, toucanfeathers and others of the old gang on various boards like Yahoo Auto, MSN Auto, WSJ Auto Industry, old Jalopnik, etc.

It brought back great memories of intelligent exchanges of information and firmly-held beliefs.

I raise my Heineken to you, old friend.

Don



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