Where We're Headed: Chrysler Proving Grounds

Chrysler proving grounds II
We're headed to the Chrysler Proving Grounds in Chelsea, Mich., to take a look at what Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge and Ram Truck have going on for 2013. The automaker is opening up its facility and allowing quite a few auto writers from all over the world to drive their new vehicles and pick the brains of the various engineers and designers of the different models and brands.

No doubt we'll have plenty of intel to bring back, and, of course, there are a few models we'd like to drive as well. Unfortunately, we're told we won't be able to drive any of the 2013 Ram 1500s that will be on display, but we will get access to Ram Team members and take all the photos we want. The Ram 1500 test drive will be later in August, and you can bet we'll have the full drive impressions then.

In the meantime, tell us what you want to know about any Chrysler car or truck or engine they offer in their new-vehicle lineup, and we'll try to track down the answers while we're there. 


@Mark Williams, my questions are on the ajustable suspension, what modles will it be on both standartd and optional. Adtitionaly it is my understanding that it only goes to max height in 4low. im woundeing if they have thought about situations where there are no traction issues just ground clearnce issues, if i could set the ride hight to my needs reguardless of what mode im in i'd be happy. Also awsk them if they plan on adding an elocker like f-serise and Nissan to non power wagon trucks, as this could come in handy.


1) Drums have had no problems. Most the stopping is done by the front. Drums can have more brake area then discs and can be adjusted to load, not to mention are cheaper and cause less drag because there is a spring pulling the shoe away (which helps minimally with fuel mileage). Most people just have a misconception of drums and think beacuse performance cars have them all should, it is more a popularity thing. Drums in the rear can stop just as well as discs with a big exception over long instances where ventillation helps. Besides, don't Heavy duty trucks (semi's not 1-tons) use them? They also use leaf springs not coils, cough cough...

2) Come on, lets not get in to that. That is a make my truck pretty thing, that has no baring on the ability of the truck. Personally I would rather have it metal under there then some plastic that can rip off if I hit too big a puddle. Get real...

3) Wait for the redesign geez, can't just throw it on there with out designing the body for it. Should we point out everything the ram doesn't have when the new GM trucks come out or the Fords? It's called on upmanship, just wait, Ram's time will come...

4) Parking spaces ok, crash protection not so much if there is a hidden b-pillar in there. Everything else is a fitment issue you may have come across in a couple trucks. Never seen issues from anyone I know with those. So does the Rolls Royce Phantom suck because they have them? Keep personal opinions out of factual arguements.

5) Ask the engineers, probably thought it was some type of great ground braking thing that years later turned out wasn't a good idea. You didn't design, you don't know. Another opinion...

6) Geez, don't you think they fixed stuff like that with each redesign? It is almost a 6 year old truck, what do you think Dodge was like 6 years ago???

7) I have said it for years, every truck should come standard with a hitch and connector. If Ram finally did that congrats, I am happy to finally see that!

8) Nit picking man nit picking. It is a base work truck, is it that big a deal when weights are trying to be kept lower to comply with fuel economy standards?

9) Um, who has the aluminum hoods??? What is tin foil made out of? "We've already seen the 2013 Ram 1500, with its aluminum hood, powertrain casings, doors and control arms, but it wouldn't surprise us to see the new GM offerings to once again play with plastic composites, carbon fiber and high-strength steel, as well" Times are changing, lightweight stuff needs to be done. Weight savings can turn in to fuel economy savings and performance gains. Get with the time already!

I completely agree with your last statement, and as I have said time and time again each of the big three has upped each other each time an all new truck comes out. Ram now, Ford a few years ago, GM in 07, Ford in 04, Ram in 02 ect.. It is the circle of life. Enjoy your time, GM will have some great stuff on their next truck until Ford comes out with some great stuff to top it. Enjoy the times, we have some great vehicles these days. Just look at what the economy cars are doing, they aren't bad at all compared to just 15 years ago! Not that I would own one but I certainly don't usually dred having one to drive for a couple days now.

Good points Ed, that is true.

The person who wrote this article is probably laughing his ass off. He asked for opinions on what to ask and we get in to a big shouting/pissing match (I am included). It gets old. I am curious to hear any new info as to what is coming, hence why I am on this site.

wow you guys are a touchy group, bunch office guys trying to hash out which they are all the best Americans make the best trucks, we are lucky to have so many nice rides to choose, you look at he big 3, and really no truck is any better than the other, i guess GM and Chevy are a little behind but are coming out with new things and Ford and Ram will probaly take a little more of a back seat

From the information given out so far it seems like the Air Ride suspension option was developed for ride quality and fuel economy as the main benefits. Payload leveling is a nice benefit also.

Ask the Ram engineers if there are any plans for a Heavy Payload option. For example 80psi E rated tires(3K# EACH) with the air ride package for a 4500# payload. The computer could be programmed to detect a load over say 1500# in the bed and not go into highway low ride mode for adequate suspension travel with a load.

Is the tradesman package going to continue to use the 1-ton chassis with leafs or did they design the 1500 frame to be strong enough with Coils and or possible air ride?

Will the 3.0 diesel be B20 compatible?

My top questions would be:
1. When will Ram 1500 get a diesel?
2. MPG figures for the new Ram trucks?
3. Cost of baby diesel?
4. Cost of air Ride?
5. Cost of the 8 speed?
6. Can you ship me a new Viper for testing?

These dodge guys make me sick. Really used to pull for them but not anymore. Hemi or whoever you are you need to shut up. real ram guys don't need you. You are an embarassment to them. I think you are the same one that post all this crap under different names. Grow up and get a life. We don't need you here.

My son owns two of your Dodge pickups and the quality is below average on both of them. Weak transmissions, weak ball joints, junk heater and air conditioning controls, terrible ride in HDs, heater core behind steering column, must I go on. Dodge trucks have been junk for years!

@Greg; I had a 2006 Chevy, it was real quality control one. Let's see, mount between frame and cab broke without me even offroading, popping noice, interior with Tyler's great ext cab interior was rather noisy on any paved road less then perfect. I could see the edge of my hedliner, so could my friend with a 2003. It hunted for gears with 3.42s and 265/70s, it will really hunt with the 3.08s. Grinding noise from tach. Poor paint, I shoulda told them it sucked. I could hear it pingin.Sharp spot in bed cut my finger. trans made a "clank" when downshifting. Truck sat unlevel after moving 2 Dodge 360 blocks with cranks. Maybe 450 pounds? Thats what I remember!

But it did get 19.5 mpg @ 75 mph, through Kansas. On the Good Year ST tires that are lightweight street oriented 6 ply (unlike my 8 plys that TRXs & Outdoorsman have. BTW, you know to get over a 7 ply on a Ford you need a Rptor, FX4 & Offroad trucksonly have 2 ply side wall, same for GMs. Too bad it is so quick to downshift, cause it lacks torque. I drov it for a year,then it was gone!

I have an 08 Ram. I've had it in to the dealer twice since I bought it brand new. Once for a recall, the other for a tierod issue that I caused when I installed the leveling kit, they were fixed under warranty.

I don't know too many vehicles on the road that can go 4 years with that few trips to the dealer.

Your pointless dribbling sounds more like jealousy then complaining.

I'm going to echo Greg B:

Jeep Pickups; When? JK based or conventional style? (Personally, I want JK based.)

Ask them if they are serious about building above class 5 trucks and what the timeframe is on development. Also ask then why they would even dare enter the heavy truck market after it has proven to be a loss with companies dropping out and all the EPA garbage.

I have a better question, Jugger:

Who really needs a Class 5 for everyday driving? I'm guessing that 99% of the people who drive pickup trucks on a daily basis have no need for such heavy towing/hauling capability which only adds expense to the overall cost of the vehicle from purchase to operating to resale. I won't argue that some people might need it, but those folks probably already have their CDL drivers license.

124000mi on my 04 Ram 2500 4x4 and has been to dealer only once for a broken electrical harness thar runs the guage cluster back lights.....not bad....how ever i just replaed both side ball joints but still.....8 years later...ill take that. Really wantein to see an article on 2500 hemis

Ram guys. Lets be delicate with the feelings of the other brands.
I would feel the same way they do if my cave man truck was
lacking innovation as their brand does compared to the 2013 RAM.
New 3.6L Pentastar V6 =wards 10 best engines.

Class exclusive eight speed transmission

Stop,start ,thermal management system,Pulse width modulation

Active aerodynamics including grill shutters and air suspension

Class exclusive air suspension improves ride control & off road capability

Improved ingress/egress and loading. Automatic load leveling.

Class leading aerodynamics, coefficient of drag.

Uconnect 8.4inch screen

New remote locking class exclusive RAM BOX and tailgate.

Class leading 5 year 100,000 mile warranty.




Let's all let HEMI V8 and FIAT have there 15 minutes of fame for a truck that's not even out yet or tested/reviewed by anyone.
It only took dodge,)being slowly killed off) I mean Ram a bankruptcy and to be given by Obama to the only foreign corporation that would take them off the US governments hands basically for free. Ram has never had class leading anything even if only for a few months at the end of the year. So let us forgive the childish ram fanboys for there post behavior here. After all something's only happen once in a decade just like solar eclipses.
More guts
More glory
More FIAT control over a former American company every day

You Jugger are JEALOUS=Feeling resentment because of anothers success or advantage Etc...

Let me address a few things Hemi. Warranty, um what is GM's warranty??? Anyone? Says on GM's site 5yr/100k...

OMG, they have a 3.6 ten best engine. GM's 3.6 was the winner two years before that...

Where is Dodge's Hybrid or cylinder deactivation?

Active shutters & air suspension. Shutters are another thing to break but I think GM will have that on their next truck I thought I read a while ago. That came out before Dodge was even mentioned? An air suspension, GM has had it on their SUV's for years! Though maybe not a bad idea time will tell, I know semi's use them and are durable but we will see.

I agree with someone earlier stating maybe they should get their 6spds correct before attempting an 8, I foresee a lot of gear hunting comments and unnecessary shifting by testers.

Not a big fan of rambox though the auto locking tailgate is nice.

8.4 inch screen who cares, are you gonna watch movies on it? If I need navigation I buy a better stand alone unit for a thousand dollars less that I can take with me on travel or between vehicles.

Oh boy, a lower CD for maybe a year or two until the others go further. Follows the one upmanship I have been talking about. All the stuff you list are short lived and have/will be on other stuff later.

I am interested to see how the active shutters/full air suspension work over the course of time. Seems the active shutters would fail with bugs, rocks and dirt/mud hitting them and making them fail. Time will tell...

Some nice things done by Dodge, GM will up them then Ford will do the same, enjoy the merry-go-round because that is all anyone is on.


You don't want one you don't have to buy one. Just keep your
ignorant comments to yourself.

Why are the back seat head restraints on Dodge , Ford, and Toyota so large that they block the view? My 2008 GMC Sierra are small and they do not block your view.

@ Tyler - Dodge has had MDS cylinder deactivation since 2006 on Hemi......


Dodge had a Hybrid, it is the exact same as GM's setup, guess what? Dodge killed it because it sucked.

Cylinder Deactivation, Dodge had it in 2003, years before GM did.

Air shutters mentioned on GM before Dodge mentioned them? Mostly like a BS statement, but who cares? Dodge will have them on their trucks first.

Air suspensions, Dodge still put it on their trucks first.

Gear hunting in the 8 speed is possible, but then the trans is the best conventional automatic trans in the world, (class leading shift times) it isn't going to be as noticeable as when the craptastic GM 6 speed does it.

Sounds like you are pissed that your truck doesn't have Ramboxes (or something similar) or any sort of good infotainment setups.

Yes GM and Ford will probably one-up Ram a year after the 2013s are released. But that is ok, because an all new 2015 Ram is only a year behind Ford and GM all new trucks, and I'm sure Ram will one-up Ford and GM when those are released.

Actually warfish the Hemi had MDS since 2003 when the 300c was first introduced.

@Jugger. Entering above Class 5 ,is what was rumoured the buying of Navistar is all about. Fiat was thinking of doing that before it took a majority hold in Chrysler. It looks like MAN/Scania with VW backing might beat them too it.

Everyone can thank me, I got Hemi to change his name. I feel honored!

Hemi, I am in no way jealous of Dodge. The crap they built before was absolute junk. They have done much better lately for the most part and I commend them, but trolls like you make it hard. Kind of like the Tundra boys talking about how fast their truck was when it came out, just fan boy worthless shouting just like you and your people.

Rambox is great for some contractors and suburban dads who want to store stuff there and tools. But we have always used our trucks strapping stuff on the sides, putting in heavy loads and having to shovel and lift things over the sides, it would get in the way and get broken. Why would I want that? Good thing it is an option and not standard.

Ignorant comments? Pot met kettle... I am not the one on here starting wars in every single news article, I am not the one jacking off to the Ram brand wearing a Hemi t-shirt, I am not the one on here spitting off a bunch of hard nosed opinions.

Sure I was wrong about the cylinder de-activiation, didn't know they had it. How well does it work? Works great in the GM vehicles but if you put a loud exhaust on you can no doubt hear the change.

Was that hybrid ever produced or just tested in the Ram's? If it wasn't produced it doesn't count...

Glad I got under your skin so much, it is about time. You have annoyed the crap out of everyone on here for a while, how do them apples feel? You come on here posting about first this and best that and then get all pissed off when you are called on most of it. Sure some of it is true but most isn't, and you never have the audacity to go "oh crap, my bad, you are right". Take a note like what I just did with the cylinder deactivation. You know what, I am going to pull a classic Hemi line and say, but but but GM had it first on their Cadillacs in the 80's.

Glad you agree it is a on going circle on one upmanship, just enjoy it, if it weren't for the other two Dodge wouldn't have made a much better truck, they wouldn't have had many of the technologies they put on or the capabilities they have. Just sit down, shut up and say thank you sir can I have another.

Btw, I won't be buying one because I want my truck to be reliable and last, something every GM vehicle we have owned has done and not something Dodge is particularly known for...

PS, enjoy the third sales spot on the podium.

@Tyler - well said.
It matters little to me as to who made what first or my 10 year old truck is flawless or the next gen (insert brand here) will be equivalent to the "second coming".
For every guy with a "my truck is best on the planet" story I hear, I 've heard a story of "my ex brand was the worse ever" story.
Does anyone here own a 2013 or 2014 truck?
Answer is NO.
So how can anyone say that brand will be the best?
One-up-manship by companies dictate that it should be.

Bottom line - express one's opinion without the trolling, the "POS" remarks, or "mine is superior" remarks.

I am just as guilty as anyone else for getting caught up in the war of words, it just degrades the quality of the site.

@Tyler please you have never had a DODGE so shut your mouth. Go to your G.M. thread thats on fire a hole.



drum brakes are great but its a bad idea to drive on muddy drit roads they get packed and then they suck.

yes, tell us about a jeep truck and any diesel in a half ton please!!!!

Tyler, stop trolling! You feel good because you got under somebody's skin? Seriously? It would be great if we could get this forum back to where it used to be: a place for all pickup truck enthusiasts.

@ Alex - does trolling for trolls count as trolling?
There has been considerable amount of trolling from a bunch using the "Ram" or "Hemi" names. It has been excessive and I don't blame Tyler for getting pissed off.

I do agree that we need to get back to talking trucks not politics, big government, big banks, big business, or big d--ks (as in mine is better than yours).

Warranties are overrated. I drove less than 10,000 miles on my truck last year so a 5 yr 60k warranty is just as good as a 5 year 100k. The only way you see any benefit from 100k is if you drive more than 12k miles a year and even then it is not that much better. If you drive 15k miles a year you get an extra year warranty, big whoop. I have never had to use a warranty on a Ford truck.

Ford has already one up Ram and the 2013 won't do anything to change that.

1) bigger box
2) bigger crewcab with load flat floor
3) in vehicle electronics
4) durability - lasts a long time
5) reliability - doesn't break down
6) work-like features
7) more interior options
8) operating costs
9) payload / towing
10) visibility

The only thing Ram may have on Ford is fuel economy but that is yet to be seen.

Obviously, ask them what the Ram's fuel economy numbers will be.

But we have always used our trucks strapping stuff on the sides, putting in heavy loads and having to shovel and lift things over the sides, it would get in the way and get broken. Why would I want that? Good thing it is an option and not standard.


Same here plus it takes away from the width of the truck. The shorter width plus the shorter length of Ram's cargo boxes means I have to make more trips to haul big and heavy items for the business. No thanks.

i agree with Tyler, and they keep talking about the 8 speed tranny, why is that so great, talk to a lot of Ram owners and they cannot get the tranny right they have now what is going to change with the 8 speed tranny, going down the road with a load and the 8 speed will hunting for gears all the time, Ford and Gm are having some problems with 6 speed trannys hunting for gears and not knowing which gear to be in...


They have problems with the new engine, too.

AN: Fix coming for rare Pentastar problem?

Several dealers have reported a problem with some Pentastar engines, involving premature cylinder head failure on cylinder number 2.

Ask them about the Pentastar problems...

quote: From what I understand it is a manufacturing problem, valve guide tolerance, to tight or angle its at, something like that. I've personally replaced two heads, one in a minivan, another in a grand cherokee. I all, our shop has replaced 4 now, and have a head on order for a fifth vehicle.

I'm willing to buy a new Ram and will soon. The trash talking kids in these blogs (both for and against) aren't playing into my decision one way or the other. What I did was drive one and really liked it.

For the guys complaining about the Rambox I agree and don't need it but it's an option and there's plenty of scenarios where it could be useful and that's why there's takers for it. Trashing an option because you don't need it is as stupid as listening to the "guts glory ram" guy or the other trash talking kid.

It's great having so many choices but there isn't anybody who will come here and base their buying decision on what they read in these comment sections. I'm all for free speach and wouldn't suggest anybody be censored but the stupidity on here falls on deaf ears with the people that are actually using a truck or researching a new truck purchase.

Keep up the repetative arguing but do it knowing that your only audience is the handful of you that argue among yourselves.

Tyler's a GMC troll. Warfish was spot on with his GMC truck assessment. Drum brakes, thin tin sheetmetal (and wavy as heck on the Chevy beds at that), poor sealing of the cabin area, cheap interiors, on and on it goes. This current generation Silverado/Sierra will go down as one the worst cheaply constructed trucks in history. And yes, rear wheelliners should be standard on All trucks.

@ Magnum You took the words right out of my mouth. It's like a bunch of old hens saying my truck rules and yours is crap. I would expect I lot more from men than acting like a bunch of old ladies. My last 4 trucks have been a Ford, 2 Chevy's, and now a Ram. I liked each one for a different reason. None were better than the other. Buy what you like and don't bad mouth another guys decision to buy something different than you.

@Dave There's a first time for everything. I'd be careful what you say because it could come back to haunt you.

@Dave, Allpar is wrong there is nothing wrong with the Pentastars going on the 2013 Ram. Don't worry about that.
Everybody has growing pains so don't you worry.
THE RAM 2013!

@Lou, YES, they have. Ram has been out testing and driving 2013 trucks so they know what they are talking about. Allpar also has the same info. Best in class aerodynamics. Class leading fuel economy without a reduction in capability or reliability. Power increases with the v6 at 305 and Hemi now at 395 hp. Stronger frame. Air suspension.
•Next generation electronics with cell-equipped radios, voice control (and texting), available software updates, and configurable 7” information center. New interiors. Allpar tried the SLT seats and found them more comfortable! Allpar says Ram is on track to take the V8 mileage crown! So as you can see Ram has one up Ford again like they did in 09.

SATURDAY, JUNE 30, 2012 This Time, Chrysler Could Bail Out Fiat

Fiat shares have been hammered by worries about Europe and its auto market. But it's not getting enough credit for its savvy U.S. investment or its successes elsewhere.

During the financial crisis, Fiat's daring move to take a bankrupt Chrysler off the U.S. government's hands was criticized by analysts and the media, Barron's included.

Yet the Italian auto maker pulled off an impressive turnaround at Chrysler, in which it now has a 58.5% stake. The Auburn Hills, Mich.-based company will likely sell more than half of the combined group's estimated total of four million cars and light trucks and generate much of its net income this year.

Chrysler's resurgence has been so strong that it now provides a lifeline for Turin's Fiat (ticker: F.Italy), which faces serious challenges in Western Europe, its second-most important region by revenue.

Enlarge Image

Joshua Roberts/Bloomberg News

Chrysler and Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne says the new Dodge Dart "is the first child from the marriage…. [It's] a make-or-break car for us" as the company takes a new shot at the compact-car market it departed following the ill-starred Neon.
.In an interview with Barron's, Fiat and Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne didn't mince words about Chrysler: "The Fiat Group has a future because of Chrysler…. There's not a single doubt in my mind that I want the rest of it."


If Fiat can complete a combination with Chrysler, its exposure to Europe will be much smaller. "With North America and Brazil profitable, Fiat's leverage to Europe is not that severe," says Bernstein's Warburton, who recently upgraded the stock to Outperform from Market Perform and has a €5 target price.

Fiat already has signaled its intentions by moving forward with notifications to raise its stake to about as soon as it is allowed after July 1, under the terms of the labor agreements with the UAW. The remaining 41.5% of Chrysler is owned by the UAW's Retiree Medical Benefits Trust, or VEBA (Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association), received in the bankruptcy settlement for the discharge of some Chrysler worker-retirement obligations.

It's a good bet that Fiat eventually will own all of Chrysler. According to terms of the original deal, Fiat can buy it for a flat price of about $5 billion, or through the piecemeal accumulation of roughly 3% every six months. Or, as some expect, Fiat can negotiate a price.

What might the rest of Chrysler cost?

The CEO downplayed a published report suggesting Fiat could afford to pay €3 billion for VEBA's entire 41.5% stake. That would be "a really good day for VEBA," he quips but "the question is: Can we find a price where I can live with the potential downside of the acquisition?" The downside is a Fiat credit downgrade following the acquisition.

Fiat seems to have the wherewithal. At first quarter's end, Fiat had about €5.8 billion (including Chrysler) of net industrial debt and €10.1 billion in cash as well as €2 billion in untapped credit lines. Shareholders' equity was €12.3 billion.

The Bottom Line
Fiat's stakes in Chrysler and Ferrari alone are worth about 25% more than the Italian car maker's market cap. One new target price for the stock is €5, versus the current €3.97.
.Don't expect a quick agreement. Marchionne says he and VEBA are "not close" to a deal for the entire stake. He adds that a public offering of Chrysler shares in 2012 "is off the table." Starting in 2013, VEBA has the right to ask for registration of Chrysler securities, but without Fiat's cooperation, an offering is unlikely. As for an oft-rumored public offering of Ferrari, Marchionne says it would be possible in the right circumstances, but "unlikely in the short to medium term."

IN THE INTERIM THE Western European threats to Fiat are real. The region's auto sales are likely to decline to about 13 million units this year from 13.6 million in 2011, a fifth consecutive annual drop. Sales in Italy, Fiat's third-biggest country by volume, have fallen 19% this year. Fiat's home market share has been halved to about 30%.

The auto maker's problems aren't limited to Europe. As vibrant as it is, Brazil is intensely competitive and market growth could slow. Marchionne says he expects to maintain double-digit margins there to 2014, though he concedes they will drop at some point. And besides the $9.2 billion hole in its pension plan, Chrysler still has further to go in improving its reputation for quality. In China, it's producing just 100,000 cars annually compared with GM's 1.4 million, says Rebecca Lindland, IHS's director of research, automotive. GM and Ford are more diversified, with about one-third and one-half, respectively, of unit sales coming from cars whereas Chrysler still gets 78% of its sales from light trucks and SUVs.

Even as the prospect of a full takeover of Chrysler looms larger, any stabilization in the European auto market would offer an immediate boost to Fiat's battered share price. Until then, the "Italianization of Chrysler" has turned into the "North Americanization of Fiat." The faster that happens, the better off Fiat investors will be.

Guts Glory Ram

@Mopar Muscle -another prophet of the god Fiat and all the demigods therein. Thumping on the Alpar bible preaching to the heathen hordes.
I'm talking about 3rd party unbiased testing!

@Hemi - please note: "During the financial crisis, Fiat's daring move to take a bankrupt Chrysler off the U.S. government's hands was criticized by analysts and the media, Barron's included.
Yet the Italian auto maker pulled off an impressive turnaround at Chrysler"

Fiat turned around Chrysler.

That Italian/Canadian Sergio Marchionne sure nows how to run a company.

For what its worth - the majority of global corporations are struggling in Europe.
Here is an example of how sketchy things are in Europe - Germany is selling government backed bonds at ZERO "0" percent and are even considering offering bonds at negative percentage popints. In other words, they will charge you to save your money and they will get away with it as people are not trusting banks.

You probably won't believe it because it isn't mentioned in Alpar!

Too bad he is not running Ford, GM or Navistar, they desperately need some help.

@Lou, Just because you and Dave are JEALOUS and trying to discredit Ram and allpar doesn't mean you are right. Allpar is a third party as they don't have anything to do with Ram. I must agree with allpar. Ram seats are the best!

After you've worked your tail off - reward it. Guts. Glory. Ram!

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