Ford Reclaims V-6 Towing Title

Ford Reclaims V-6 Towing Title

I suppose we should have seen this coming.

Just over a month ago, the new Ram 1500 was declared to have the best fuel-economy numbers of any half-ton pickup when equipped with the new Pentastar V-6 and eight-speed transmission. (The HFE model, rated at 18/25 mpg city/highway, includes a rather pricey start/stop piece of engine technology.) The new Ram also boasted best-in-class towing among naturally aspirated V-6 engines, with a Ram-rated (read: not SAE's J2807 rating) 6,500 pounds.

At the State Fair of Texas, Ford has just announced — without so much as changing a bolt on the current regular cab 2013 F-150 4x2 with the 3.7-liter V-6 — that the previous tow rating of 6,100 pounds is now 6,700 pounds, 200 pounds more than the brand-new Ram 1500. (Remember our "magical spring dust" story some years back?)

Ford said it went back and did a few more tests, and engineers say they're comfortable with the new best-in-class Ford-rated (also meaning non-SAE-rated) 6,700 pounds.

These new ratings are specific to a truck with 3.73:1 gears. In fact, a regular cab 4x4 is rated at 6,500 pounds, a Super Cab 4x2 at 6,400 pounds and a Super Crew 4x2 at 6,300 pounds. Maximum towing on a 3.7-liter F-150 with 3.55:1 gears is 5,600 pounds.

If you want more fun, take a look at the Ford press release with the towing information. Anything catch your eye?

"The Ford F-150 pickup equipped with the standard 3.7-liter V-6 engine has the highest towing capacity among competitive models. F-150 can tow a 6,700-pound trailer, besting the 2013 Dodge Ram 1500 3.6-liter V-6 by 200 pounds and the Chevrolet Silverado 4.3-liter V-6 model by 1,300 pounds.

"The Ford F-150 with 3.7-liter V-6 engine beats the Toyota Tundra’s standard 4.0-liter V-6 model by an additional 1,800 pounds. The Nissan Titan offers no comparable V-6 variant.

"F-150 owns the maximum towing capacity honor, too. Both the 3.5-liter EcoBoost and 6.2-liter V-8 are rated to tow up to best-in-class 11,300 pounds."

You'd think Ford would at least know the correct name of its closest rival (when comparing maximum tow ratings, at least). But then again, maybe that wasn't an accident.

Ford continues to say it will adhere to the J2807 towing procedures when the company comes to market with a new pickup. The last new F-150 came in 2009; 2011 gave us four new engines; and 2013 gives us a few new packages and interior upgrades.

We're guessing we're still a few years away from a half-ton market where we can get all the tow testing from each of the truck makers on the same page. Until then, we're sure to see more of this type of "magical" gamesmanship.

Comments

@ DeBinder. I will give the Tundra props, it was good in 2007, but times have changed. My "wannabe" V6 Ecoboost can easily out tow my friends I-Force 5.7 with 4.30s even when she was stock, and still return 9-10mpg towing 8,500lbs and 17mixed/20 highway mpg. Custom tune these engines(something you CAN"T do in a Tundra) and you will be easily putting out 425hp and 525ft-lb @ 2,500rpms while still being able to reliably tow it's max rating of 11,300lbs. I have towed 10,850lbs tuned to the deer lease for 165 miles twice so far while still having very safe temps and EGT's in hot Texas 100+ outside temps. Bash V6s all you want, but I have turned many V8 owners chuckles into "WTF, a V6 can't do that" many of times .

shadeOrEurop.DeBinder Dunbett: Well that explains it all! You are one of those contracters getting fat of the gov!

I really don't think you know the average American. Pretty sure the AVERAGE AMERICAN cares about how many gallons they use. Sure there is you and HighDesertCat (your Arizona bud that also drives a Tundra and could care less about gas prices-one in the same maybe? ) and some Raptor owners. Sure, lots don't care. But does it make any sense to keep putting more in? And not care at all? Like, "I could pocket an extra $50 a month, oh, who cares!" Oh wait, you have deep pockets!

When the 2007 Tundra came out, it was far ahead of the others. To think it still is, you must live under a rock now? "The 2013 Tundra-The truck that is changing it all for Cavemen!"

Actually, Ram had a 6 speed in a 1500 a long time ago. Yeah, you couldn't access them all with the top gear unaccessable in tow haul, and the other 2nd gear only used in tow haul or as a downshift (prime second). Yeah, the gear ratios were not so spread out and spaced like your truck has. Props to the trans in your truck! I have yet to hear of a Tundra modern day trans failing. Johnny doe says GM had something like Dodge did years ago in diesels. I don't know.

But for you to say the domestics have nothing close to the Toyota 5.7, wow, that shows how disconnected you really are. Dude, we had this conversation here, the 5.7 Hemi makes just barely less torque below 2200 rpm, but after that, the Hemi has a much broader powerband. Not only broader, but more torque, more horsepower. And in the 30K $ shootout, the Tundra came in dead last in mileage. I know-you don't care! But if it's all that, well maybe it could balance both. An effecient engina CAN be a very powerful one. Look at that Nissan combo. Pretty good on torque, crappy mileage. The big thing is that the Tundra transmission has folks believing the Tundra 5.7 makes more power then the Hemi. Simply not true! The Ram RFE-545-current six, whatever they call it, holds the engine back with it's gear ratios, while Toyota and Ford/GM had much lower 1st gear ratios. The Nissan's trans is even better spaced then the Ram's! That and the fact that Nissans are pretty chincy and weak lightweights.

But tht's until now! The new Ram 8 speed has well spaced gears with lower starting ratios! So now your extra 2 valves are still not getting it done!

It's not about wanna bes driving v-6 trucks. It's about some people buying only what they need! Yup, there are still folks like that!

I don't guess you wanted to talk and compare V-6 trucks. Kinda troll like of you!

PS, your Tundra doesn't corner so well! (Compared to others in class!) But why should you care? You see a corner, you slam the brakes, and floor it, right! "Just more gas!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqEirjbHekg

hmmm the 2013 RAM?/8SPEED lmfao is the MIDDLE truck .... WoW that all new TRANNY/MIGHTY 5.7 HEMI LoL ....

@DeBinder: Only wannabe's buy half tons.... Care to compare your modern marvel to my 2012 Spartan tuned deleted Superduty? Drag race, towing test, payload, build quality, creature comforts? Wait that would be apple's to oranges and not really fair to your precious lil Toyoyo wouldn't it? I guess I just wrote this to inflame someone without actually adding to the conversation huh? Sound familiar?....

If I do say so myself... I am the best... so forget the rest.

@Al Kohalic
I have 504hp/550lb ft with a 4.30 axle ratio stock and as I posted earlier upgradeable to 550hp/600lb ft with a 2 psi pulley swap and headers so your ecoboost cant touch that ever. If yor so confident in that ecoboost try the big dog.

TRX4 Tom
As for the 8-speed being better your right it is but it has a draw back that makes me say keep it away from my Tundra and that is it's lower power rating my Supercharged 5.7L iforce is over it's power rating. Also your sway comment is correct again but their are ways around that: 1st- TRD Rear Sway Bar (which I have) and 2nd- Swap out stock front sway bar for the Sequoia front sway bar (on my mod list) http://www.tundratalk.net/forums/tundra-performance-modifications/101970-stiffer-front-sway-bar.html.

@5.3L: I swear I'm not being rude, but I literally laughed out loud thinking about calling a Toyota a "Big Dog" Made my morning, Great post!

@ Cory

You are the type of person that brings this website down. It is absolutely worthless when people (like you) post a link to something to try and prove a point, hoping that nobody will actually watch it and realize that you are full of crap.

Firstly that guy running the test is an idiot, go watch some of his other videos. Secondly he did 2 tests that varied from 0.5 - 1.0 seconds in his 0-60 times. That is a HUGE variance. Meaning he doesn't have any idea what the hell he is actually doing.

I have no idea if the Ecoboost with a 6 speed transmission can out race a hemi with an 8 speed in a drag race. I also don't care. I do care when people try to jump on their ridiculous partisan pro Ford, pro Ram, pro "whatever" band wagon and attempt to use obviously terrible data to support their stupid partisan opinion.

@ 5.3LOL

I wasn't trying to start a who's epeen is bigger competition. I was just merely stating that a V6 does have a place with the V8s as Debinder was stating they don't. Also, you can add all the power to the the Tundra you want, if it doesn't have the rest of the truck to pull it then more power doesn't matter. I do have a freind that has a TRD S/C on his truck and their is no doubt that his is quicker then mine, but the EB still tows better than his while still getting way better mpg loaded and unloaded. That winding SC noise at 3500 rpm gets really annoying after towing for just 25 miles to where I can go for hundreds of miles going up the hills towing with the EB with the engine 2300 rpms with a slight turbo whistle. Gets the job done comfortably with more than enough power for just a V6.

male bovine fecal matter.

Philyguy summed some of it up; the drag race is NOT EVERYTHING, it is kinda like an added bonus if it happens-wins ( FOR ME, anyway) I like drag races, but I wouldn't buy on drag racing results alone. I have yet to race mine. An 8 speed gives you more choices to put with just the right rpm. As I can compare my 2010 Ram to the 2006 Chevy I had that had 4 speed, people can compare 8 speeds to 6 speeds. It also makes shifting alot smoother. You can also get two of the same engines (pick your poisen-of course of now you can't bolt a Chevy/Ford/Toyota to an 8 speed, but if you could ) and bolt both up to a 6 speed and an 8 speed. The lower gears in the 8 speed also mean you have more gears closer together, and the 3.21 geared truck with an 8 speed can tow better then the 3.55 geared truck, and still have the last gear for better mileage for highway use.

Now, let's see what Mark Williams and the guys (gals?) can get for 0-60, quarter mile loaded and unloaded, braking, gas mileage, and see how the air ride trucks corner.

Serious phillycheese nothing wrong posting a video of 3 trucks doing some testing . ---->MIDDLE<----- truck 2013 RAM . thats there OPINION ... I am very shure there will be more testing of the SAME outcome !!!!! I just thought it was FUNNY .... I don't really post here much. SAD now when I do come here to read INFO on the NEW TECH .. I just see FIAT AHOLES taking over CHEVY/FORD posts SAD :( . ME bring this website down your A IDIOT.

@5.3 lol AT certified Ford dealers you can get a BACKED 3/36000 on a SC for 5.0/6.2 and many other goodies to push them 600hp/600TQ plus.

This website has become a joke with all of the trolls on here! Get a life and if you don't like the product DON"T BUY IT. Stick to your cheap GM, Dodge and Toyota tin can cars with pick up beds on the back. Ford is #1 for a reason the build the best truck there is. Some of you really need to grow the heck up! Seriously there are 2nd graders that behave better than some of you do! Who cares is GM claims their fuel economy is better? (no that is Bob or MichiganBlob or whatever he calls himself now) And the other moron that is Gutless, Gloryless, and a Hole Lotta Junk. WHO CARES???? Does it make you all warm and fuzzy inside to keep repeating it? I mean really does it?? Your worthless posts are not going to make me buy a Dodge because of their and your lame marketing campaign. I just ordered my 2013 F-150 Supercrew Lariat model. Come up to Massachusetts when I get my truck and I will tow your Dodge all over the streets of Boston for you. Gee i wish I saw your post earlier I would have bought a Dodge or a Chevy. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats funny, I said something about Debinder's Tundra engine cause he first made the comment "nothing compared to it" and I actually compared an engine to it, and went back to the original subject: v-6s in half tons and their tow ratings. How Ford jacked up the ratings without doing a thing, just for advertising. Then I get Cory the troll showing a video of some guy doing a review of trucks, then he goes on about his ecoboost trip. Cause he is comparing a twin turbo to a naturally aspirated engine. Maybe he should read some of the racing class rules and see the differances in weight/cubic inches when racing a turbo? Yes, I know on the sales standpoint, it's a direct comparison of trucks, but it is not an apples to apples comparison of engines and power. So none of the Ford guys want to compare their 5.ohs and antique 6.2s, they hide behind the Egoboost.

@Fordtrucks77,Speaking of trolls,This website has become a joke with all of the trolls on here! Get a life and if you don't like the product DON"T BUY IT. Stick to your cheap GM, Dodge and Toyota tin can cars with pick up beds on the back. Ford is #1 for a reason the build the best truck there isPosted by: FordTrucks77 | Sep 28, 2012 1:53:34 PM

Funny you mention tin cans Ford is going all aluminum LOL.

Has to be funny driveing by the dodge dealer here in my city and seeing 90 Rams pickups sitting there nobody buying them and sales guys smokeing outside! When u build crap nobody comes

@Harley: Well now they have an 8 speed and a modern day v-6, and the 2500s/3500s just got alot of changes. Added airbags to the seats, lighter/stronger frame, best in class mileage, I can go on, but it really looks like in about a month they will be doing a bit more, and in 6 months will be pretty busy. Maybe then your dealership you bought from will be pretty bummed out, they will want you to get another antique engine in a Ford! Another 6.2!! Did you read about the Superduty reliability I posted there for you a few days back? It has to be funny trying to figure out when check engine lights keep going on and limp mode and shaking trucks, and stuck in fourth gear. Actually, it's not funny for that owner, and those engines have been out only 19 months or so. I guess those Ecoboosts are only good in a dry envirement huh? Condensation has Ford covering up intercoolers! Wow, they are sure selling alot of them! Might just BACKFIRE on them!

The conversation is V6 trucks, or more specifically - normally aspirated V6 trucks.
Why bring up supercharged or turbo pickups?

Also why bring up "our V6 is better than your V6" when none of them have been tested against each other.

They can do a modified pickup shootout if that floats your collective boats.

@ TRX4 Tom I'm a troll WoW .. seems everytime there is a ford or chevy post you jump in BASH BASH BASH tire size gears blah blah fkin blah . 8 speed this 8 speed that . same goes for Douchebag HEMIV8 BASH BASH BASH .... ecoboost trip ? your kidding me compare 6.2 or the 5.0 to your 5.7 lmao .... I have a (2012 FX4 5.0 3.73) all the goodies with it .... my old (F150 2011 XLT 5.0 3.73) ... we get HEMI 5.7 from ENTERPRISE Rentals,average 14MPG worst I saw was 7.5MPG .

@Cory - TRXTom keeps talking about gear ratio's (transmission and rear end) as well as tire size because they all effect the performance of a vehicle. Why is that concept lost on many of you? Must be that "I can't see beyond the badge" phenomenon?
Pointless posts that are irrelevent to the conversation are a partial definition of a troll.
Posting performance video's done by fanboi's to prove a fanboi point is in fact trolling.
Phillyguy has a valid point.
I do not mind off topic conversations if they expand one's knowledge of trucks or helps me understand what my fellow blogger's opinions are based upon.

You posts do none of that.

My friend with benefits has a husband with Ford Harley working at Alberta oilfields . I am in Red Deer right now. He is so focused at his truck, he doesn't know, when he works there rotation shifts, i am doing his wife hard. It makes me very satisfied, because I drive RAM. Win win situation.

Dudes/Dudettes! If any of you want to buy a normally aspirated V6 F150 halfton, it doesn't mean squat to me. You're paying for it. My point is that people who know trucks buy a halfton with a V8.

Only people who can't afford to gas up a truck buy a V6. V6s are fine for compact or midsized trucks but not for fullsize halftons. For the people who buy a V6 fullsize it's all about show. For people who rely on fullsize trucks it's not about show. It's about go!

All the other V6 configurations in a halfton truck are for the wannabees and girls. But even most girls who buy trucks also buy them with a V8, and it doesn't matter which brand they choose.

V6 configurations of any truck is only to improve the CAFE ratings for the product line of that manufacturer. There's no way that anyone who's serious about trucks is going to choose a V6.

And this may come as a surprise to many of you shadetree mechanics but the vast majority of people who drive trucks do not care that you can soup up your truck to outrace all the others. I'd rather trade mine every 3-5 years and drive the latest and the greatest than pour my life savings into some old truck. But it is your money!

Most people buy a truck for the utility and versatility it offers. And that's why I drive a Tundra now, because it offers the best utility, versatility, quality, value and content for the money. So it is all about personal choice and taste.

Yeah, I know Tundras sell for anywhere from $4000 - $8000 more than similarly equipped domestic trucks, but you get what you pay for. Tundra caused the domestics to take drastic measures to improve their trucks because it was radically ahead of them in 2007. I'll take that Tundra 5.7 over everything else that's out there! It's that good.

Right now, I'd say that Ford is leading the pack and is so far ahead of GM and RAM that all they can see is the dust they're eating. That could change in the future, but I doubt that Ford will be sitting still and waiting for GM and RAM to catch up.

I doubt that Tundra will do anything to upgrade their truck except for maybe adding the 8-speed out of the LS460 to their top truck (the Limited). People still buy the Tundra, and every Tundra sale is one lost to Ford, GM and RAM.

That's why Ford, GM and RAM kept comparing themselves to the Tundra in the past, until they could make improvements to their trucks. Now they have made the improvements and can claim parity.

Some people claim that Camry and Accord are the best sedans on the road, but not everyone can afford one. Same with the Tundra. Not everyone can afford one. Not everyone is willing or able to plunk down $35K-$45K+ for a Tundra when a similar domestic truck goes for $28K-$35K.

That doesn't make the Tundra a bad truck. If it works for the people who choose to buy it, that's great.

But a normally aspirated V6 in a fullsize truck claiming the towing title? It's just a marketing stunt. Just like Tundra's towing of the Shuttle is a marketing stunt.

I'm going to be trading off my 2009 Tundra in 2013 or 2014 and I'll check out what's out there. I always do. All I need is a halfton, but there will not be a V6 in my future. And whatever I buy has to be better than what I drive now.

Face it! Most Americans do not care about the price of gas, no matter what state they live in. That's why the F150, Silverado, RAM and CamCordSanDai outsell everything else out there.

If people cared about the price of gas they'd all be driving Hybrids and EVs and small, bug-eyed little pregnant roller skates. And they're not. The sales of Hybrids and EVs isn't even a drop in the bucket of total sales in America. But the Corolla, Elantra and the Civic do pretty well.

And I bet that most people who buy a V6 trucks will not get the advertised mileage either. Like I said before. Why not put a four-banger (with or without turbos or supercharger) in an F150, gear it accordingly, and claim the towing title for a four-banger halfton truck?

See how ridiculous this is?

I owned a tundra.Never again will I ever buy another toyota anything.JUNK!

@DeBinder Dudette
Ever hear of a hobbie? Some love to tinker and learn.

Some love to race pickups and even cars.

Some go camping with a caravan and need to tow or carry a tent so might only need a coupe style pickup.

Some tow a boat for fishing, water skiing or whatever else.

Some like to off road and need gearing and suspension mods.

Some only have 5 cylinders pickups and even 4 cylinders.

But not all are like you, Dude.

I would care about the price of fuel, because soon you will.

Some people can't afford a pickup and would love one just to take their kids camping on a weekend and go fishing.

Wow a f#%ked up attitude. I hope what you are writting isn't your view of the world and you are only trolling.

@DeBinder Dundett - you are overlooking a very important fact, unless you use your truck for work it is a luxury item.
A lifestyle accessory.
No different than the PC or Mac you are typing with, cell phone you use, TV you watch, or big house you live in.
As times get tough(er) those luxuries will fall away.
Putting fuel into a pickup will get more costly.
That is a fact of life.
A billion Chinese want oil and unlike us, they can buy it with cash.
How many will say they do not care about the cost of fuel when they have to chose between filling up their truck or filling up their kids bellies?
There are many who do not care about the cost of products they consume or how their consumption affects others:
do drug addicts care?
do alcoholics care?
do smokers care?
do truck drivers with their brains caught in the 1950's care?

Not trolling here, people. Fact is, MOST Americans do not care about the price of gas and that's why they drive what they choose to drive.

If the majority cared about the price of gas, they wouldn't be driving the gas-guzzlers and thirsty beasts that they do.

One of my friends owns a 1999 F250 V10 (I sold to him years ago in 2004) and he gets great mileage at around 10mpg on the hwy, but it hasn't motivated him to buy an F150 with a V6.

Agree that buying a truck is a lifestyle accessory. I've always had at least one truck in my life. At times, I owned one fullsize truck, usually a halfton, and sometimes even another truck-based vehicle like a Suburban (when my kids still lived at home), and the usual gaggle of sedans and SUVs for the kids to scoot around in.

Sure, there will always be people who have to worry about the price of gas, but they are in the minority. During all the times that we had price-spikes in San Diego and Southern California, I have never seen traffic been reduced by one iota when the price of gas was over $5/gal. Yo, it's a bargain today at $3.73/gal.

People choose to buy gas no matter what it costs and they also choose to buy what they buy, no matter what the price of gas. Clearly, if they can't afford it, they should not be driving a truck or SUV or a large sedan.

But to claim that somehow a halfton truck powered by a normally aspirated V6 is something worthy of touting as a real truck, is pushing the limits of credibility. It's no better than a 4.3 S-10, or 4.0 Ranger, or even a 3.7 Dakota, 3.5 Tacoma.

Hey, they put a V6 in a halfton truck so it betters their CAFE averages! And this marketing ploy is all about getting people to buy into the myth that a normally aspirated V6 is a good thing, and for them to want to buy one. It's bogus!

Now, we can certainly disagree about the whole concept of calling a halfton with a normally aspirated V6 a real truck, but that's up to the actual buyers to decide when they vote with their wallet.

And regardless of which brand we each choose to buy and drive, one thing I'm sure we can agree on is that whatever it is we choose to buy, it has to work for us and our lifestyle. That's why I drive what I drive and there will not be a 6-cyl in my future.

I'm off, towing three Jetskis to Fiesta Island at Mission Bay so the grandkids can frolic in the water. For those of you in the area, stop by. I've got the grill going and the Sam Adams is cold.

@DeBinder Dundett - when prices of gas spiked a few years back a large number of large SUV's and pickups started to surface. I saw multiple adds "take over payments", the repo lots were filling up and, trucks were being parked. Even at 5 dollars a gallon US, that is still a bargain.
You said you had a MEE and MBA. That puts you at the high end of the middle class if not into the upper class when it comes to wages. That isn't the average demographic. Speaking for "most" Americans is a bit of a reach. Using the excuse "If people cared they'd be driving a Prius" doesn't wash. Have you ever priced out a Prius? I was talking to a tour bus driver when my family went to Disney Anehiem. All he could afford were beater cars and commuted 1 hour (one way) because he couldn't afford to live close to his bus depot. I talked to others with the same story. Most of the people at Disney when I was there in May were foreigners. Very few "Americans". Why is that? Luxuries disapear when times get tough. Perhaps they chose to put gas in their gas gugglers instead of a family vacation.
No one knows how high a fuel price most "Americans" can adsorb. We aren't there yet, but are close. I'll sell my truck for a loss before I'd let it effect my family.

Dear moderators;

Please remove all posts in any thread from this point forward that says,

GUTS
GLORY
(*anything*)
RAM

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing it in nearly every thread, no matter the subject matter.

@Harleyf150 Right on Ford!!! Always one step ahead of everybody else think the cummins pos diesel can out tow our ford diesel just give it up u live in a fantasy world haha.... Well im no fanboy but u have no idea about diesels that ford uses do you? Maby take a look at this sometime http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/f650-f750/ Ford uses cummins to

I have read a lot of replies on this. If I had another hour, I could read them all. Point is; to each their own. My father just purchased a 3.7 F-150, because he needed a truck. I needed a truck once, and purchased a 2002 4.6 F-150. I found the truck I chose was not enough for what I needed, so I purchased a 2008 F-150 with a 5.4. Everyone needs their particular pickup when they go to the job at hand. I now own a 6.4 2008 F-250. I have a very heavy 20' trailer that hauls a 4x4 toy, so the weight is pretty well to the 8000-9500# max. The weight was hell for the F-150 to tow, so I upgraded. I hope the 3.7 is up to par for what my father needs, but I am on a higher step in towing needs. I have had people mention that diesel should be cheaper than gas, I fully agree... Especially since I drive a diesel! As soon as my father picked up the 3.7, I went to find out as much information as possible. He loves his new truck, and decided that it will fill the needs that he requires. My father owned a 1994 5.0 ext. cab 2wd, with an E4OD trans. Last I heard, it was at 240k. The miles were not hard, but more 50/50. He hauled a small Ford tractor and brush-hog with it through the Ozark hills. I would say that the truck was neutral, if not worked a little over the expected amount. He changed the oil at every 3k-5k miles. My little sister drove it through a ditch, and the winter weather caused the truck to see a few aggressive ditch slams. Towing wise, the Ford truck has been on par, if not short with the experience I have gathered. I find that the dependability is there for a good amount of truck life. I think an 18k truck lasting 230k+ is a decent buy. I know it is all about ratings, but I believe Ford has it. I am not saying I agree with the fact they can tow the most, but I do know they stand behind their product. That is more than half the battle...



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