Ford vs. GM: Twin-Turbo Showdown

Confrontation II

It's no coincidence GM has just come out with its own all-aluminum twin-turbo V-6; after all, Ford's EcoBoost engine is the best-selling power plant choice in the half-ton class, and it makes good business sense for GM to spread the costs of engine development over the widest possible product plan rollout.

That's why we'll see the new powertrain and transmission in Cadillac first, then maybe in the Camaro or a smaller Corvette after that, then on down the food chain. But make no mistake; this engine will be dropped into the new full-size GM platform.

In the same way the engine first is put to work in a Cadillac, we fully expect the first pickup truck to grab the premium V-6 to be the GMC Sierra, possibly a new Sierra Denali 1500. Although we've heard no official confirmation from GM, there are several reasons why this is a no-brainer.

First, turbos do wonderful things for torque curves. A normally aspirated V-8 typically reaches its torque peak somewhere around 4,000 rpm, with a slow ramp up and a very fast drop off. The EcoBoost and the new GM engine behave much differently, thanks in large part to high-pressure direct injection and two small exhaust turbochargers. From our experience with the EcoBoost, we've seen as much as 90 percent of the engine's available torque start at 1,700 rpm and last clean through 5,000 rpm.

Even the test data GM provided in its Cadillac CTS press release noted the new 3.6-liter motor would have a relatively flat (we'll assume at least 90 percent) torque curve from 2,500 rpm to 5,500 rpm. For towing performance in particular, it is a huge advantage to have that much of the available torque accessible in a lower and wider range of engine speeds. Not surprisingly, those characteristics are more in line with big-hauling, heavy-duty turbo-diesel engines like the Cummins, Power Stroke and Duramax.

Additionally, when not towing or in a heavy-hauling situation, and when feather footing the truck around town empty, the engine will behave like a basic V-6 engine, weighing quite a bit less than a comparable V-8 and providing much better around town and highway fuel economy.

Although the only fuel estimates (17/25 mpg city/highway) GM provided in the press release relies on factors that include a smaller, lighter car sedan platform, we're guessing it won't drop by much when tested inside a Silverado, which some insiders have told us could offer several lightweight platform packages. It's also possible GM will put this new Silverado twin-turbo V-6 through EPA testing procedures with regular fuel (although Cadillac specs show premium fuel will be required) and take the initial hit in power output and possibly fuel economy in order to be able to say the mainstream Silverado will run on regular fuel, just like Ford's EcoBoost. We should note Ford tells us that its power outputs improve slightly, measuring 385 horsepower and 430 pounds-feet of torque when using premium fuel, instead of the regular fuel the owner's manual recommends.

What will all this mean in a Silverado? We'd like to think the new technology means better choices for truck customers, giving them more capability with fewer tradeoffs. Technology updates such as this — powertrains that let us have our cake and eat it too — are always hugely appreciated.

3.5L-ecoboost-f150 II
2014-GM II

Comments

@Pat
I checked out the timing chain issue, it must be a US problem.

It seems a Camaro issue.

I couldn't find out anything on our Commodores with that problem.

I was wondering maybe the US/Canadian built engines are slightly different.

We have similar situation here with other brands/models that the US has. You will get a recall and we don't and we get them and you don't.

I didn't see any timing chain issue for the Saab engines either, they were apparently made in Australia.

You sound a bit anti GM :)

Mark Williams is wrong about turbos offering much of a fuel economy advantage for city driving. It still takes gas to make torque and it still takes torque to move around with a 3 ton truck and its payload, particularly in stop/go driving.

Gas mileage is improved incrementally in highway driving however.

Still, there's no free lunch as long as we have otto-cycle engines and 87 octane motor fuels.

We need a government in Washington that isn't so completely hostile to the needs of drivers who like trucks and SUVs. America has the greatest network of roads and highways in the world, we should be promoting that! Instead we have all the Green weenies piling-on about global warming and bambi.

If you agree with me, let your Congressman know how you feel. If not, don't.

GM and Holden = the blind leading the blind.

Sounds like you're anti-U.S.A.again after I proved the Caddie-Aussie connection made a flawed engine.

Google Commodore and timing chain and there are plenty of results.

2007 SV6 Stretched Timing Chain


Hi I have a SV6 with 94,000 K's on it.
Today after starting i got a engine warning alarm, i took it straight to Holden left it running and the plugged a computer into it which gave a code P0008 or something like that. They said Timing chain could be stretched would have to leave with them for 1 to 2 days.
Anyone experienced this?

Pray the engine blows up next, that way you are 94,000km better off.

I had the same issue on a VE SV6 at 52,000 km after I dropped in to Ferntree Gully Holden to show them the dash alarm message (1st visit). Ferntree Gully Holden replaced the timing chain. After leaving the car with them for 1 week (I was overseas) I picked it up on the Friday night (2nd visit), then found a pool of oil on my garage floor the following day. I took it back to FTG Holden (3rd visit) and they kept it for another 2 days to replace a 'faulty' gasket. I got it back the following Tuesday night and when I got home to check it I found the alloy cover on top of the engine was covered in burnt oil, and there were 2 plastic retaining clips missing. I went back Wednesday AM (4th visit) to have the cover cleaned and retainers replaced. 1 day later there was a constant squeal from the front of the engine. When I returned to FTG Holden on Friday (5th visit) I was advised the power steering pulley required replacing and that this was an ongoing issue. They also needed to order the part from GMH. Of course I asked why this was not replaced when they did the timning belt (or 'faulty' gasket) they said that GM would not allow the warranty claim if the pulley was replaced before it failed (despite it being known this was a common issue). The final (6th visit) trip to FTG Holden resoloved all of my issues at that time. Good luck Lenny66 .......................


Hi Guys,
Just bought an 06 SV6 and it now has the same issue. took it to Holden and because its done 120K they have said its not covered. I fought with them and they are going to speak to Holden head office and see if they will cover the costs. i found some of the GM bulletins relating to this issue but no Holden ones...
I'll just have to wait and see if they cover it.


Another stupid decision from Holden we all know about the issue and they still won't fix the problem.
Another reason for people to buy cheap imports!
Good luck mate.

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I just had the sane problem as you guys. My SV6 has only done 74,000kms and the engine warning light came on. I took it to Winter and Taylor Holden an they said stretched timing chains. The lady at the service office took my service book and photocopied all the services which the car has had (all done at holden) and thn proceded with paper to Head office to see if they were going to foot the bill. By the end of the day, she called me back and said that holden was going to pay 33% of the bill. She said that it would cost between $2800 to $3000 for the repairs. Now im not sure whether i trade the car in for a new one or just get it done. Holden should have footed the whole bill because it is their #### up. A bit disappointed with holden but its betterthan nothing.

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I just had the sane problem as you guys. My SV6 has only done 74,000kms and the engine warning light came on. I took it to Winter and Taylor Holden an they said stretched timing chains. The lady at the service office took my service book and photocopied all the services which the car has had (all done at holden) and thn proceded with paper to Head office to see if they were going to foot the bill. By the end of the day, she called me back and said that holden was going to pay 33% of the bill. She said that it would cost between $2800 to $3000 for the repairs. Now im not sure whether i trade the car in for a new one or just get it done. Holden should have footed the whole bill because it is their #### up. A bit disappointed with holden but its betterthan nothing.

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http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/ve-holden-commodore-2006-2013/133294-2007-sv6-stretched-timing-chain.html

So you couldn't find anything? I found that in 2 seconds on the first page. It's all over google. There's much more. You're either lying or trying to cover up because it made your claim of the Holden operation in Australia connection on this engine look bad. So you tried to blame it on United States vehicles. Wrong, mate. Look again and just be honest with yourself. If you love the co-design connection between Caddie and Holden, you have to be honest when there are problems.

It's all over google. One more for you. Enjoy. :)

I have a 2006 SV6 VE.
Last week the engine warning light came on. Today my brother in law brought around his Garmin GPS that has a ECORoute HD Diagnostics.
I have discovered that it has 2 error codes P0008 & P0017. My Car has 112000km on it and is out of Warranty, so looks like
I will be forking out $3000 for this repair. Will be talking to Holden Dealer first thing Monday.
Hopefully they can fix it before Christmas. Great Christmas present

@Pat
It seems it resolved here. That's why I haven't heard to many people talk about it. I have a cut and paste from one of the threads.

I do stand corrected and I do apologise for that.

Also, most of what I read GM fixed the issue, in some cases it took until a new chain/belt was made.

Also, many comments are in regards to the previous engines as well. One guy had 287 000km on the clock.

I googled FSX V6 timing chain problems and came up with Camaros', no Commodores, sorry.

If you know anything about this engine Australia designed the SIDI (direct injection) for the engine and Cadillac designed the core engine.

We manufacture them as well as the Canadians and the US.

And it IS good that Australia had involvement in this engine. If you can construde that as anti American, you are the Australian equivalent of Hemi V8:)

You sound anti Australian. Are you? This comment has as much credence as your anti American comment directed at me.

Where's this anti-American BS coming from? Where have I made a anti US comment? Really?

It's like saying I'm anti Australian because I don't believe in some of our protectionist tariffs.

The cut and paste.

"yeah never hear of it anymore over here.

i believe the first alloytecs suffered from chain noise holden redesigned and they then stretched. holden redesigned again seems ok now."


One thing, how many km's do you have on the clock, and when is the belt recommended to change.

How often is the engine "flogged", especially when cold.

Fords 1.0 I3 makes 170 meter-newtons. That is metric, which when you converter x 0.73756 = 125ft-lbs
99hp is the standard output, with 123hp as the premium version.

I agree with others on here, this is wishfull thinking on the behalf of PickUpTrucks.com. This is a car engine, if it was going to be put into a truck, it would have already, in the form of the normally aspirated 3.6, that is in the Cad and Camaro presently. GM, also, wouldn't have bothered making a "New" 4.3 all aluminum, for the 2014 Silverado.

They can keep the turbos...and all the problems they cause....I take a simple v8 ....Ford Ecoboast system is repeat only...."one mile per gallon better than the 5.0 V8..in 4 wheel drive version...and cost $1,250 more.....I take the two extra cylinders and smooth running idle speed of a V8 anyday over the two extra turbos.....

@TRX4 Tom: You are so fun to play with, you know that? Hey, at least you got one point right, I did say airbags are unnecessary. Did you see the photo of the Cadillac on the roof of a house--where it went after the air bags popped for no apparent reason? Car started to make a turn on a fairly steep hill, bags popped, driver lost control 'cause he couldn't see. Certainly not like the bags saved the driver's life or anything, either; they would have deflated by the time the car hit the first house and flew onto the roof of the second. But that's beside the point on this discussion.

That 33mpg with my Camaro--a '96, by the way, was by keeping my RPMs below 2000--which meant running 70 to 75 which was exactly the speed limit of some of the freeways I drive and about 5 to 9 above the speed limit of others. My argument is the fact that there are those that feel they have to go 10 miles over the speed limit, no matter what that speed limit is and quite honestly that's how today's gas mileage ratings in the US is being calculated. The best way to bring those people down to a more reasonable speed is to simply reduce the speed limit by that much and ticket everyone--and I do mean everyone--that exceeds that speed limit by more than 9mph. Since people won't voluntarily slow down, they need to be forced to slow down. Again, simply slowing down by 10mph can have a huge effect on overall fuel use on the freeway.

However, that would have no effect on the "Jackrabbits" which are so deadly to in-town gas mileage. I will admit that even I am guilty here on occasion, winding my tach to 5 grand before shifting under certain circumstances. Normally I prefer to shift between 2300 to 2500 though 3000 isn't uncommon. Even so, my in-town mileage with an '08 Jeep Wrangler exceeds the EPA rated 15mpg by 2.5mpg or more on average. I know I could do better with the Pentastar engine, but aerodynamic modifications could have the same effect even without changing engines.

Finally, I never said "trains are everywhere" at least, not in the US. Nearly every other country in the world uses rail as its prime people-mover both in-town for larger cities and between cities and towns--even third-world countries tend to use more rail than the US. That's clearly our own fault as our love of the car overrode common sense when it came to operating in crowded cities or going longer distances. Even I travel thousands of miles a year to visit family in other states--mostly because there is NO rail transport to where I need to go even though tracks run within 5 miles of one family's house and within a half-mile of another with potential stations no more than 5 miles from either.

Passenger rail *could* be viable in the US now, but developing the infrastructure for such would cost more money than certain parties want to spend. Even so, it is possible to ride by rail from coast to coast and border to border in this country so it really wouldn't be all that hard to expand on that capability--but it would require accommodations by the four Class 1 railroads as well as many short lines. Many existing "abandoned" rights of way could be re-activated for passenger service without seriously affecting revenue service.

You see, I tend to look at a far bigger picture than most. I'm not an "old man"--well, unless you're a teenager. However, I have lived long enough and studied society enough to see how things could be changed--as long as you ignored politicians.

Why would I not be able to get this engine in my next Silverado yet a Sierra buyer will? I'm sick of GM screwing their Chevrolet truck buyers and trying to force them into their GM truck instead of a Chevrolet to get anything good. Ford doesn't pull this garbage. Nobody does but GM. I'm about sick of the GM company as a whole. I wish Chevrolet could get the hell away from these guys.

@DWFields,
In California they have that Train system that runs around Los Angeles (LA Metro)and that Diesel pulled Double Decker train with very basic platforms(AMTRAK)like having to literally climb into the train from the ground level platforms. Not a lot of train infrastructure.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e99GXXNTkIo/UHYf9WL-4cI/AAAAAAAAEXc/dm4drSoLOX8/s1600/Amtrak+short.jpg

This is Al's gimmick. Find any way possible to link any story back to Austrailia in a positive light. His other aim is to spin anything as a negative towards the United States of America.

When it was pointed out to him that the Caddie-Aussie design produced some serious defects, he did an about face and put all of the blame on the United States. He couldn't find any Aussie problems when in fact the Australia Holden had the same problrem or worse. Is he just being sloppy or a troll? If you haven't noticed when nobody pays attention to this posts, he will post repost it on another page until someone comments. This guy is a troll to the extreme.

Just give me a V-8 with no Turbo's.

Hemi has the best power/performance and mpg.

Ford 5.0 is more reliable then the eco boost and pretty much the same mpg and performance.

GM 5.3 is a decent performing and mpg engine.

Turbo's and small engines are only good in a light weight vehicle,add more weight you strain the turbo no stop.Unless you get a new truck every year,it doesnt matter but myself I keep them for 200-300,000 miles and 8 years.So far my 05 Hemi Ram still performs flawless and gets 16 mpg average with no mds ! 279,540 miles with zero engine rebuilds or tranny rebuilds.Did redo the rear end at 220,000 only mechanical issue that needed doing.

In a heavy 5000 pound plus truck a small engine and turbo's are going to be problematic.My brother already had turbo issues with his eco-boost in his Ford Flex,along with a headgasket problem,oh snap !

@tom2013 Im glad im not the only one who sees this about Al. We need a seperate forums for the aussies and euros. Tired of them highjacking every thread and turning it into something the article wasnt even about. This website has turned into a dumpster fire

Yeah, that's what most Australians are like, mate. You'll grow weary of these blokes after about 6 posts.

@lautenslager and all of the other psuedonyms.
www. seem to be in the front of this site. Do you know what www. means? It doesn't mean USA, if I remember correctly it stand for the globe.

You know you don't own this site or anyone else. If the owners of this site want me off, I would be off.

But, it's people like you who fill 1/3 of this site with useless crap. I do know this isn't indicative of the average American, just braindead fool like yourself.

I've been to the US many times and I'm actually a US citizen, born there and I haven't meet to many Americans as deluded as yourself.

Have a serious look at your country and the main problems it is encountering is most likely caused by people like you.

You hide behind your computer, with no balls.

You aren't an American that America would be proud of.

I guess we shall see how the turbo V6's shall last over normal use. My guess is as long as owners keep the cooling system in prime condition they should be okay, but most people do not making short work of destroying an engine that pumps air back into the motor generating great amounts of heat. The second thing I wish to see is that when you are boosting these engines all of the time, in Ford's case 20 psi starting at 2,000 rpm, how well they are going to last. Lots of pressure on crank shafts in already high compression engines. Time will tell whether or not this is an advancement or we will be looking back on a huge mistake

Commenting on the GM 3.6 liter torque band, I can say from experience that the statement of 90% of peak torque between 2500 and 5000 rpm is overstated. Having driven several GM vehicles with this engine, it is very high strung, having to shift often to maintain speed on grades. Has good horsepower, but torque is lacking in my opinion.

It seems to me that a lot of people are scare of this new turbo engines. But consider this; most modern pickup diesel engines run compression ratio of 14-17:1 and ram 30-50 psi of boost to create those huge torque numbers. in the EB case, it runs 10:1 Comp Ratio and at peak torque about 10 psi.By peak HP is down to about 6 psi. So question, If we are so high on diesel and the reliability what makes you this This engines, with far less mechanical stress will be any less reliable?

regards,
AL

Modern Diesels biggest "hidden" problem.
When (not if) the high pressure injectors wear out, they cost $600-$800 EACH to replace.
All modern diesels engines are direct injected at 25,000-35,000psi. Most use Bosche injectors. These injectors typically wear out at 100,000-150,000 miles depending on the quality of diesel fuels in your area and the effectiveness of your fuel filter. Yes, diesel engines generally speaking last far longer than gas engine, but the maintenance and repair costs of diesel are far more than gas.

@DWFields & Robert Ryan: Great, we are talking all about trains. They can serve a heck of a purpose, like the people that rode them from my old hometown northwst of Chicago, into Chicago for work. Great! And the L that my nephew still takes to get around Chiago. Great as well! But this is a pickup truck site, I can't just get on the train and carry much with me, even if they were more accessable to me!

Everybody using pickup trucks just to get around with, maybe good for a family of 4 or 5, but do a couple people or a single person not taking tools or cargo need a pickup everwhere?

Last weekend my lady and I attended a horse race in Hot Springs, Arkansas. As much as I like driving my 2010 Ram, I can't justify it when my ladies Nissan Sentra gets 35 mpg. Why take a truck? Even if it was a Ford Ranger diesel, it won't get close to that. BEFORE the EXTRA price of DIESEL. Oh, I am talking hilly country, atleast until Little Rock, AR. Heck, I could have even stuck the good exhaust manifolds and H-pipe I wanted from the pick n pull salvage yard in Little Rock, had the H-pipe not been bent. I had the tools.

The point is, trains really can't take the place of pickup trucks that actually get used. Yes, they can help save people seeking general transportation with nothing to haul, but it would be awhile until we had more train track, that's a rather long term idea. They are better used for people going into the big city from suburbs.

Instead we have some guy on here preaching about how people will have to live with what they need, not want, while he drives a little 4x4 diesel truck to go to the bank @85 mph plus, he could be driving a VW Beetle diesel and get 15 plus mpg better, but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

Until then, some people

Give it up already PUT.com GM is not bringing this engine to the trucks already!

@DWFields: As for airbags, lets see,maybe less then 1 in over 1,000,000 goes off like the story you talk of. And then there are some people, like my brothers mother in law, that stuck a 5 year old child in the FRONT seat of their Ford Escape. The warnings are out there not to put a child in the front seat, yet people do that. Good thing that airbag didn't go off/it wasn't in an accident. But somebody of your mentallity would blame the airbag. If an airbag weren't there you would see alot more head injuries, as my sister in law is a speech therapist and works with them all the time. The seat belt mainly is there to hold you in the car, and I hear alot how people are thrown out for not wearing them, ussually rsulting in death. It's pretty sad and unfortunite. But keep thinking airbags are just the governments way to control those not wearing seatbelts. It shows you don't see a very big picture.

Ah, yes, GM gearing their cars to barely turn any rpm for gas mileage. They make it worse when they usengine with barely any torque. Then when they get in a hilly envirement like I live in and they constantly downshift, and it's not a smooth shift with those old 4 speeds! Then they get crappy mileage in the hills! No thanks! Oh, it's not a mater of me being lazy, as you tried to spin it once. I downshift a MANUAL TRANS vehicle when it needs it. Autos I let shift when they need to, hence the name AUTOMATIC.

I think your idea of a 60 mph speed limit is pure stupidity. It opens it up so pople like Illinois State Troopers, or whatever they call them, can pull over any non Illinois driver over 60. LOL. Maybe you should go to states that have a 75 limit, and see their tollerance is far less then states that have a lower limit. They say, HERE YOU GO, DRIVE 75, but we see you going 80 we will get you, unlike your 9 over idea. I use Illinois as an example since they are one of the worst for out of staters.

@AL951: yes, and are those cast aluminum blocks near as sturdy as Diesel block? Can the 87 octane people will run cause it's cheap, be able to support the high cylinder pressures? Although in alot of them, Ford says Premium required. Such as the Ecoboost Fushion.

Yet we get people insiting that a diesel will cost $5,000 to 8,000 more then hat he/she thinks some turbo 4 cylinder will cost that generates 390 ft pounds trq. If We did have 4 cylinder gassers that were 2.3 Liters getting EVEN 350 ft pounds trq, would they be so cheaply built? Steel cranks, forged pistons, stiffer blocks, oil squirters coling the bottom side of th pistons, as my 2003 SRT-4 Neon had,beter valves, steel rods are just the short list. Then those high dollar injectors nlp writes about. Oh, and a high dollar fuel pump. Lets just make trucks so expensive that once it starts to fail, people will just say, oh, the hell with it, and not keep it on the road.

It's happening.

My 2002 Chevy Duramax Diesel has 8 of those injectors and at 250,000 miles they need replacing again. GM paid for the 1st replacement under a special policy for all Duramax owners. This time it's my dime...actually 50,000 dimes or $5000.
I love my turbo diesel but they are EXPENSIVE to operate and maintain!

Maybe because it's a GM they need replaced twice already??

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking my truck. I have no doubt that the Duramax turbo-diesel and Allison transmission combo is good for 400,000-500,000 miles but you have to be prepared for a $5000 injector replacement every 100,000-150,000 miles. If you do the math, figure a turbo diesel will outlast 2 gasoline powered trucks. The math works out in favor of the turbo-diesel but only if you keep it for a LONG time.

@TR4 Tom,
"Instead we have some guy on here preaching about how people will have to live with what they need, not want, while he drives a little 4x4 diesel truck to go to the bank @85 mph plus, he could be driving a VW Beetle diesel and get 15 plus mpg better, but he doesn't practice what he preaches"


Three Points, trains are as rare as UFO Landings where he lives, a VW Beetle Diesel is not a Pickup. Going 85mph is SLOW on some of the roads of the NT.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

@TRX4 Tom
If you were "preaching" about me, I have never stated what to own or operate as a vehicle.

You are taking information out of context again of what I say.

What I've been saying WILL occur. I've been crystal balling the future for you guys. It seems I'm quite accurate. Obviously, you guys are fearful of the future. That's the problem with Fox and Friend types like yourself, very simplistic.

Guys right now are complaining about the cost of injectors and the cost of newer pickups coming out etc. All I can say is I told you so, and prices will still go higher and higher. Welcome to reality, not many like it, but that's the way life is.

I don't know if a VW Beetle would get the same fuel economy I get at 85mph, can they do 85mph? And trains are scarce, you obviously are a city boy. Speed limits up here are getting dropped again and I have driven vehicles at well over 200kph.

When properties (farms) are as big as countries there ain't too many driveways and side streets to worry about.

So read my complete story I've put forward. Since coming onto PUTC Tom Terrific. My story is unfolding quite accurately. You Tom Terrrific are more worried about your own insignificant perception on what you think others think of you. Small minded and selfish?

You live in the past with the other hicks on this site, its the future you should look to. If you had done that you maybe would have gotten yourself an education.

I have nothing against any engine or vehicle style. But you are the guys who are trying to be competitive.

Why? Because you are scared. To be honest there is nothing wrong with midsizers either. And NO ONE has told you what to buy. Its your Fox and Friends interpretation that is screwing you up.

Also, remember if you want credence, earn it, mate. Its not hard, just stop writing crap and talking about what you have little or no knowledge of. Listen and learn.

Remember I told you this site is private and if the owners want me off I would be off by now.

I think the brand passion here is great but sometimes it comes at the cost of the facts.

In the half ton world the engines have been shared with cars since the dawn of the auto industry.

GM-Vortec Engines were based on the same LS design that debuted in Corvette in 1997 all LS family engines came from the 5.7 LS1, they had their internals modded for their specific uses.

GM-Vortec Pre 1999 These were again based on the Corvette LT-1 design introduced on the Corvettes in 1993.

Historically and up to today when the Corvette gets a new motor the trucks get a new motor.

Ford-the Mustang, Crown Vic, E Vans, trucks and SUV's all ran on the same motor family until the advent of the Coyote in 2011.

Again the internals were adapted to the use of the engine.

The 3.5 EB started life as a luxury car engine option.
It had its internals strengthened for use as a truck engine and the rest is history. It sure smells like that is the path GM is going down and that's ok.

In the Ram world the V8's and V6's in the Challenger and Charger are almost totally interchangeable with the 1/2 ton truck engines.

In the Gasoline side of equation not only is there no such thing as a dedicated truck engine, there are no gas engines that have been drawn up only for truck use. The costs to do so would be huge so the automakers design an engine then adapt the engine for different applications. Its the only way to make it cost effective.

GM chiding Ford for using a "car engine" in a truck was the pot calling the kettle black because its what they have always done too!

I don't think a diesel half ton will be a bad thing but I do think that sometimes the "sexiness" of a diesel overshadows the costs of living with one. The cost premium to get a diesel engine in a pickup will take a very, very long time to be recovered in fuel mileage savings add to that higher maintenance costs and repair costs and I don't see how the numbers can work in favor of the diesel pickup for personal use.

Commercial usage is a different animal but even at that I am not sure if all the commercial users of those trucks really need them. Again I think the sexiness of driving a diesel overshadows the numbers.

I don't doubt there is a user group for those motors but I think image sells more of these motors than usage.

If anyone WANTS to drive the trucks that's great, more power to them that's one of the great things about being an American but there really isn't a justification and I think that is why it has taken so long to get a 1/2 ton diesel and because it is a purpose designed and built engine the economies of scale will cause it to come at a higher premium then a high end gas motor like an EB.

It will be interesting to see when this engine makes it to the GM trucks how it will compare to the Ram 1/2 ton diesel in price. If I had to bet I think it will be cheaper.

Ooof! That bug is really hitting you today, Big Al.

@TRX4 Tom:

Really, man. You got to start reading and comprehending what I write rather than just reacting on far too little information. Sure, GM does lower the RPMs... That Camaro I described did quite well in southern Missouri on my drive to Springfield on State highways. It didn't do a lot of gear shifting and stayed quite handily at 60mph using cruise control. Or had you forgotten that I have told you I've driven in the Ozarks? Sure, a bigger engine might have handled it even easier, but it also would have used notably more gas, too.

As for trains, I did point out that not everybody needs a car or truck just to drive to work or drive across country. In fact, too many people tend to fly distances that a train could cover as quickly (from arrival at station/airport to departure from destination station/airport) and arrive much less stressed out. For that matter, if a lot of the people who drove those distances did take the train (assuming it was available (Had to be said; you can't even think hypothetically according to your posts)) they too would arrive much less stressed and with a far lower likelihood of getting involved in some form of road rage. As you put it yourself, why drive that truck to a horse show (assuming you're not pulling a horse) when that little Beetle gets you there just as quickly with a lot more fun and economy?

Oh, and when I spoke about slowing the limits I clearly stated !enforcing those limits within 9 mph for ALL drivers! No in-state leniency! As for states with 75mph being more strict--take a look at Virginia with a 70mph limit; they're one of the most strict states I know while Tennessee is more relaxed at 75. Again, even if drivers could be forced to adhere to the posted speed limits and no faster, that could achieve a visible improvement in gas mileage and personal economy.

@Al: #1. No, you never told me if the owners wanted you off here you would be by now. You told somebody else.

#2. I am not scared. We can voice our opinions and let people know we don't want the crap you are pushing. W don't have to be like Austraulia.

#3. If you need a midsized truck, then there is nothing wrong with midsize. But if you need size? Don't send a boy to do a mans job.

#4. Had you actually read what I told DWFields and Robert Ryan you would realize I said trains are scarce. I said no passenger trains in Arkansas, for a fact. Dumb @$$. No, I was 9 years old when I moved from the suburbs of Chicago, so I aint some city slicker.

#5. Yeah, diesel Beetles. The girl visiting my neighbor has one with a turbo, stock. What, you mean you the "know all" you think you are has no clue about them?

I don't want to know your story, Al. I gives a damn about you. You constantly respin crap when you lose an debate, which is often, like the "My truck is safest" crap you pull." That got shot down real quick, preacher Al.

All me and many other that aren't blinded by your flash of brightness or don't have Al blinders on can look further and see that the safety tests are only good for where ANCAP tets, as they don't test ALL THE CARS IN THE WORLD. They don't even test roof strength.

Call your woman your mate, but I aint your mate.

@TRX-4 Tom
Using a dash in your name now:) You'll get caught out sooner or later:)

Then if that is your view, why do you appear to have a of these issues with me?

You talk of others? Who are they? And let them speak for themselves.

You can't, can you? It's not about me, it's about you and your perception of yourself. Like being a racist, are you one? Something that is percieved different you want to bully? Then try and find support (the "we" component).

If that's not the case, STFU.

TRX-4 Tom (with the new tag) you will need to be alot smarter and sincere in your approach with me.

Targeting me only makes you look like a fool. You are wasting alot of valuable space.

Remember what I told you, www. stands for the world.

If you don't like it move onto another site.

@DWFields: Al always does those multiple posts when somebody doesn't agree with him. So he can blame somebody else, or he gets a buddy to do it. Or a he gets a "mate" to do it. Possibly yourself?

Depending on how you get to Sprinfield, it can be quite hilly, or it can be flat. Which way did you go?

A train can be just as quick as flying? Sounds like your thinking wrong again. Maybe if you have 3 or 4 days to get from east to west coast. No stress? Sure, unless you don't like the idiot that you are sitting next to. Sorta like a Greyhound bus, which I have ridden a good deal of times. Drunks, people lighting up where it's no smoking, and stopping to let them off in the middle of nowhere. People that think you want to hear them talk all the time (there is a Big Al from Oz at every bus station!) Might as well be on a train!

No, trains wreck, never, lol! Nor do they ever break! Ok, they are pretty dependable, but we can't say never.

See, you can't figure it out that the trains go on a very limited route, more limited then any bus, and neither of them can you carry anything heavy on. In my area, a train is just not an option. I guess I can be a hobo and catch the freight train that goes about 10 miles up the road, on it's limited run. Nah, I'll leave that space for you.

Seriously, if the train were an option, I would consider it. I would just bring earplugs for al the Als I might see that think they know it all.

But it works for my relatives in Chicagoland. Good for them. I myself hate that traffic.

Oh, Sorry Al. My commputer lost power, lets make a mountain out of a mulhill.

You can STFU as well. (Thats how you bully people)

If you don't like me, you can go wherever, and you can stop with your multiple posts.

You (or your buddies) result to childish games.

Sorry you don't like me, too bad, but I aint sorry for calling you out for all your BS.

Actually Al, I don't need to reply to a thing you say.

You are pretty quick to come here on some thread such as the HD Silverado one, and post a link to a midsizer. Why? Did somebody want to see it? No. You just thought you could win one more person over with your cram it down our throats personality?

Al, I aint the only one that doesn't agree with you. Look around. Your bullying people around.

You can keep trying to accuse me of being each and every one that doesn't agree with you Al. But the list is getting bigger.

Also, we have opinions.

Get over it Al, you are not always right, but with a big head like yours, it takes too much to admit you are wrong.

I never said I was always right, but I have said before when I been corrected by facts, not BIG AL's CRYSTAL BALL FORTUNE TELLER. (Do you work at circusses as well?)

@Big Al: Actually you just come on here to bully people around. Excuse the hell out of me, my computer lost power!

Sorry not everybody shares or likes you opinion, Al. The list of people gets bigger, and you keep trying to say I am all of them, yeah right Al!

Yes, it is www, if you don't like my opinion, you can get lost.

Or just STFU yourself (that's how you bully people)

It's the big headed people like you that that are so headstrong you can't hardly look past yourself. Give it a try, Al. You don't know all the answers, nor do I, but you can atleast listen to others point of view.

You are the one targeting me. When you accuse me of being this person or that person. News flash, AL! Not everbody will agree with you!

Actually TRX-4 Tom (new tag!!)
Hmmm, you're the one:)

@Silverado_Driver - good post. I agree. A well built engine is a well built engine. Does it matter where it came from or what its in?
Gasoline commercial truck engines used to be a common source of racing engines due to the beefed up internals. A performance engine used in a truck is a great idea since the internals are already beefed up. Change the cam's and mapping and you lop a few 1000 rpm off and the engine will be ultra-reliable in a truck. The Boss 302 engine redlines over 8,000 rpm. That is your Coyote architecture. That same design is said to have DI and forced induction built into the design. If that is what one refers to as a car engine , I can live with that. Lets take a look at the 5.4 modular engine. A derivative of that engine was in the Ford GT, and has been used in all of the recent Shelby Mustangs. It works both ways.

@ (the newly tagged)TRX-4 Tom, DenverMike, HemiV8, zveria and how can we forget lautenslager the guerilla marketer. What about Tom Terrific, Tom Lemon also.

Why did you need a new tag? :-)

Why?

When you don't have the intellect or ability to debate a person down, what do you do? Become aggresive, when that doesn't work?

Become a multi-poster, multi-poster, multi-poster, multi-poster, multi-poster, multi-poster, hence your alias lautenslager tag? Who's paying you?

I will not relent, and I will make you earn your money, every marketing penny. You are finding out all jobs are not as easy as you thought.

Maybe you should have gotten a diploma or a degree. You could have a real job.

You ain't as smart and clever as you would like to think.

I do know how to get under your skin.

Look at your multipost response above.

Like I have stated get off of this site.

Give'em hell Big Al! Australia is where I'm planning to ask asylum to when Obama is made king! Plus I think Holdens are cool!

Al, Look dumb@$$, I have posted as TRX4 and TRX-4, BFD! If you look in the past, you will probably see I did that before, big deal, I don't post as all these other people you would like to make others think. Lou knows it, and people have even told you, but you are so hard headed.

Looks like I got under your skin when I pointed out your little truck isn't as safe as you think. Or as safe as you would like others to think. But you can continue thinking it is so safe. Good for you.

I give a damn you stated "Get off this site". It makes sense you would want me off here, as I don't just eat up the crud you put out! I don't agree with you all the time, so you want me off here, sorry, aint happening.

As for somebody paying me, nobody is paying me. If anybody was, it would it be anybody who believes in full size trucks. Because that's what I stand for, not these little trucks, that you are pushing. And you are pushing them hard. Who is paying you? Ford??

As far as my multipost above, it didn't show when I refreshed it, so I wrote it again.

Sorry, you aint my boss, and you wont run me off. Maybe you are so hard headed and in charge at wherever you work, but you aren't incharge here.

So you can keep making a big deal because there is a dash in my name, like I say, it aint that big a deal.

Mark Williams can vouche my email address doesn't post as all the people you would like to fool everybody into thinking. I already told you what to do with your accusations.

You aint so smart and clever either. Just become you have some education doesn't mean you know that much about trucks.

You are just mad I don't kiss your butt and don't want to play your teacher student game. I would want to learn from somebody far more open minded then you.



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