@PUTC

This truck, along with the rest of the SVT F150 trucks, is the answer to a question no one is asking.

the Raptor in particular comes across as a very expensive toy that has a lousy ride, a macho appeal and a price tag that would not be welcome anywhere.

The contrast to this is the Callaway performance upgrades. Putting a mild tune and a supercharger on the typical late model GM pickup completely transforms the Silverado's white bread appeal without ruining the rest of the truck's assets.

Apart from blasting around in the dunes, what does someone actually do with a Raptor?

What's up with the loud green dash, pretty gaudy if you ask me!

"the Raptor in particular comes across as a very expensive toy that has a lousy ride, a macho appeal and a price tag that would not be welcome anywhere." This comment seems to come purely from your own bias. Every review I have read and every owner I talked with says that the truck has a great ride in all conditions. Also, for not being welcome anywhere the truck sure is selling well.

Please keep your garbage to yourself.

@papa jim Apparently you haven't seen the sales numbers on the Raptor.

WXman and Walt: Ok guys, entertain me.

How many Raptors do you think have actually been sold (not simply ordered by dealers to put a pretty plaything on the showroom floor)?

What about my other point--Wouldn't you truly prefer a bulked-up engine/trans option that makes your favorite truck into a 0-sixty time machine? It's why I mention the Callaway approach.

Imagine what your F150 would do with a huffer on the 5.0 coyote motor! It would be a scorcher!

The Raptor only does a couple of things really well. The rest is image and macho trim to impress your friends.

http://www.offroadxtreme.com/news/ford-raptor-sales-exceeding-expectations-and-then-some-more/

Aug 2013 article...

2009 was not a great year for the auto industry. In fact, much of the world was still gripped by a depressing recession, and auto sales were in the dumper. It was not exactly the best year to launch an expensive, purpose-built off-road vehicle, right? Yet the Ford F-150 SVT Raptor proved just as resilient as engineers planned, and sales have steadily grown, even beyond Ford’s own expectations.

In fact, Ford has more than doubled Raptor production since its 2009 launch, a testament to a growing economy and the excellence of SVT’s off-road vehicle. Ford has single-handedly launched a new truck segment, which still has other automakers scrambling to play catch up with the Raptor.

The Raptor has set sales records in eight of the past 10 months, and there is just a 15-day supply of Raptors on dealer lots despite Ford cranking out five of the off-road trucks per hour. The industry-average for most vehicles is a 60-day supply, meaning that if Ford stopped building Raptors today, they would be sold out in just more than two weeks.

Overall sales of the Raptor is up 14 percent this year, helped by an overall F-series sales increase, which are up more than 22 percent, compared to August 2012. In all of 2012 Ford sold about 13,000 Raptors, and expects to sell even more in 2013, and it is rare for a vehicle like the Raptor in its fourth year of production to keep selling more and more. The Raptor just won’t quit, helping the chances of an even-better sequel. Forget the Lightning, and give us more Raptor!

@Raptor1

you are pumped about a 13k production number? Ford and GM sold a million pickups last year.

Thirteen thousand is just over one percent. That's exactly my point and you just made it for me.

Thirteen thousand is a flea on a tick's ass.

Actually you said they didn't sell but were sitting on dealer lots, you were wrong. They're selling all they can make. And they're made on the same line as the regular F150 so what is it really costing Ford now that manufacturing and production is in place? Nothing beside publicity and excitement to what could be a boring vehicle (that goes for all pickups in general). You don't seem to realize that it isn't always about selling the most of a specific vehicle, it's sometimes about generating some buzz or excitement, lots of people that don't know much about pickups have still heard of the Raptor, want to see the Raptor, their kids want to see a Raptor, they want to debate about the Raptor, etc. There have been countless articles written about the Raptor, a market of vehicle accessories that exploded because it brought desert racing, high speed offroad trucks to the mainstream thought.

You say to supercharge a 5L, how's that different than a Raptor? It'll be a hotrod for the street instead of offroad, again sold in limited numbers because the VAST majority of people don't need or want it.

So your point is not proven, and will not be proven because it doesn't hold up.

@papa jim,

You're right; the Raptor is not a huge seller, although Ford and dealers love them because they don't sit long on dealer lots and they have huge profit margins.

You've actually hit on the one thing that Raptor provides most to the Ford truck line: image, and a macho one at that. Image means a lot in the truck world, and Raptor provides image in spades. Is the Raptor practical? Not for most people, but some people don't care; they want image and they're willing to pay whatever it takes to get it(and impress their friends, as you said).

Another "image truck" would be the Ram Power Wagon. Does Ram sell many? Nope, probably far less than Ford sells Raptors. But the Power Wagon provides a rough & tough image to the Ram brand that isn't found anywhere else in the Ram lineup. To be honest, I can't say I've seen a current-generation Power Wagon anywhere but on Web sites.

The Sierra Denali could also be considered an "image truck" because it helps polish GMC's perceived(by some people) reputation as a premium truck brand. GMC doesn't sell a lot of Sierra Denalis, but the truck has ads that premium image to the brand, and it's there for those who are willing to cough up the bucks ...

If given a choice between a Raptor and a 150 with a hotrod powertrain option, I agree with you - I'd take the hotrod, but I'm not an rock-crawling offroader type of guy, either.

@Raptor1

this isn't personal, dude! But really--one percent. If you count Toyota, Nissan and Ram trucks sales, it's way under one percent.

If the big 3 would offer halfton truck buyers a legit big V8 option that would be my favorite, but the Detroit is SOOO afraid of the EPA that ain't gonna happen (but I swear to you that buyers would LOVE it).

The Raptor has performance to back up its image but it is better to have the performance credibility and be sold to posers as opposed to being a poser sold to those who want performance.
Most performance vehicles are never driven to their capabilities.

I agree with PapaJim in as much as it is expensive and most drivers will never use its performance.
One can argue the same point for 1/2 ton pickups.

How many trucks do you see hauling air? or have scratch free boxes?
How many pickups does one see towing 8-10K trailers let alone 3-5k ones?

At least 50% of pickups sold are for personal use and are rarely used to max capacity.

I would not buy one since they are even more expensive in Canada than the USA and offer little in cargo capacity.

I will add that the PowerWagon for most is ALSO a halo vehicle. I've only seen 3 that looked like well worn offroaders and 2 that were work trucks.
I've seen 2 Raptors that looked well worn from offroading and 1 as a work truck.

Back on topic:

I like the camo "wrap". I've seen a few trucks with camo decal kits on them. it is a great idea for an offroader since the "wrap" takes the abuse and when you go to sell the truck you peal it off and have your paint free from scratches.

The lime green accents are stupid.

Anyone know who makes those tires?

@ Papa Jim

"the Raptor in particular comes across as a very expensive toy that has a lousy ride"

While I agree with some of what you said, I can't with the lousy ride part. Compared to a regular truck, they have a very good ride and you don't feel more than half the bumps you would feel in a normal truck. The US Border Patrol and other law enforcement agencies use stripped down(without leather) Raptors due to there beefy and off road suspension.

The only other option is adding that kind of suspension to a regular truck which would raise the cost well past what a Raptor costs. Take the Callaway package you mentioned that bumps a 5.3L to 460hp and 455lb-ft and the 6.2L to 520hp and 522lb-ft. The package for each truck is $17,395 installed on top of what the truck cost and that does not come with any off road suspension.

On the other hand, you can do a Roush performance Raptor that pumps it's output to 590hp and 590lb-ft of torque while still keeping the warranty and is $7,570 before installation for the kit. Installation from a Roush Ford dealer would probably run you about $2,000 on top of that. If you don't like Roush then you can go with Hennessy performance which sells a 600hp or 800hp package. The 600hp package costs $12,950 installed and the 800hp package costs $55,000 installed. Both come with a warranty. The level one kits of both the Hennessy and Roush not only cost much less, but you get more power from them.

@brent - BFG Baja T/A

@papa jim
For what it is the raptor is really a bargain. It starts at $44,415. You cannot get a more fun pickup truck for that price. It looks awesome, performs awesome, and can do everything most truck owners need it to do. If you like going off-road (even if you don't and you just love the look of the truck), don't need big towing capacity and can afford a new upper-trim truck, why NOT buy it? It's way more of a bargain than a king ranch, platinum, or limited f-150 that will cost you the same or more money.

Good god that video was painful to watch.

@papa jim.. Honestly, Raptors are EVERYWHERE around here. Here's the deal.. the Raptor isn't just a sand dune truck. It's been proven to be a very capable offroad woods truck as well. Also, it comes with a set of 35s already mounted and has a warranty. So basically, it's what guys do to their trucks anyway...except it's financed together and it's covered under warrant together. It's actually a no-brainer.

In addition to that, the ride quality is pretty awesome and the wide stance makes it more stable. It's a good winter truck also.

The one in this article is hideous. But in stock form people LOVE them for their usefulness and out of the box features for the money.

@wxman

ONE PERCENT... Why not have articles about pink trucks or articles about trucks with pipe-racks, or trucks with purple tires.

It's all fine, but it's a tiny fraction of the whole pickups story.

I proposed that people would rather have a supercharged V8 or a big block, than a package that's about image.

I live in ranch country where the offseason is very rainy. Trucks that can't wade through muck and rutted roads don't cut it.

I never see Raptors around here, but I see a LOT of lifted Rams, Fords and GMs.

What's the payload. 445kg ? For V8?

http://www.ford.ca/trucks/f150/specifications/payload/

@papa jim
I think the Raptor is a marketing tool that happens to be profitable for Ford.

If you want to do serious offroading you wouldn't buy a Raptor. I do know this will put some noses out of joint. The Raptor is a toy, it doesn't have decent endurance or load capacity.

It's good for driving around the desert near plenty of gas stations.

The truck has fulfilled it's intended role, as you stated it's a desirable toy.

@Lou_BC
Your comment answered the zorro vs ALL1 argument. US pickups are not used primarily as working vehicles. So they are manufactured for their primary purpose. That is a middle class shopping wagon.

That's why I have the view I do about the so called towing arguments on what is the best. The best tow vehicle is one that can move the weight, but is most economical not towing weight. That's how the trucks are designed.

You will see a slow shift in the US away from pickups.

You'll see more of those little vans working with a 2 litre engine in the US where pickups used to do the work.

A 2 litre engine can move a 1 200lb load quite well. You don't need a large vehicle with a V6 or V8 to do that.

I don't see many pickups towing. Some do yes. But how often and how much weight. Most tow only a few thousand pounds.

That's how Ford and Chev will afford to manufacture aluminium trucks. They will be middle class SUVs. Just look at the Ram with it's low load numbers, that isn't a working vehicle.

Looks a pretty bad armor job by whoever installed that "bulletproof" glass, No overlap guards in the door jambs. Bout as worthless as the rest of the truck I suppose. Bet that thing really wallows around in corners with that few hundred extra pounds of glass in the doors and windshield raising the center of gravity by a few inches.

RAM = BULLETPROOF

POWERTRAIN LIMITED WARRANTY+

At the Ram brand, we stand behind our trucks. Decades of rigorous quality, safety and security tests go into every model before the rubber hits the road. Which is why we have the confidence to back them with a 5-Year / 100,000-Mile Powertrain Limited Warranty.

G
G
R!

@BigAl - part of the debate that has been ongoing between myself and All1 on one side and the Rambo crowd on the other does centre around the capabilities of 1/2 ton pickups.

I've been arguing that the Ecodiesel Ram is an example of a pickup that is basically a SUV with sundeck. It cannot haul much, virtually zero with passengers on board and pretty much the same for towing.

Most people buying pickups for personal use are ignorant to the actual ratings. If people paid attention, Ram 1500 sales would not be increasing like they are and most high end 1/2 tons would not sell well either because of the marginal ratings (regardless of brand).

For those of us who DO notice those sort of things, it starts limiting the choices of trucks one can buy. I was looking at the Ford site and if I want a decent payload capacity and a mechanical locking rear diff, I am confined to an XLT or Lariat.

GMC has an odd match of gear ratio's and one is limited by options if one wants decent cargo capacity or offroad features. Oddly enough max tow or max haul gets dumped if one wants "AllTerrain" or "Denali". Denali is not available in a 6.5 box.

Ram takes a bigger hit than either Ford or GMC if one starts adding options. The whole "just buy a 3/4 ton" is what Ram PR is selling and the Ram sheeple are lapping it up.

I don't want the extra expense of a 3/4 ton for the amount of times I will haul heavy or venture offroad. Been there done that. Living with a 3/4 ton is more costly than a 1/2 ton. I'd rather spend my disposable income on my family instead of a ego truck.

@Lou_BC,
While I was in Melbourne, I saw an article on "American Utes" in the Sunday Papers there.
Excerpt:
"Munro says boaties, horse people, race-car owners, retirees, builders and small business owners are getting into hese large utes. However, MORE THAN HALF THE SALES are to people wanting just a big comfy truck.
"There are people who need the capacity. If they have an accident and they are overloaded, there could be insurance issues. The thing with these is they have over 1000Nm of torque, more if you tune them up. They are not working hard and they return mid-teens fuel economy when towing"

Interesting the convertors find it hard to get suitable diesel vehicles with all the options for converting to RHD. All 3/4 and 1 Ton Pickups are limited to 4500kg(9,900lb) using a tow ball but 10tonne(22,000lb) using a 5th Wheel hitch.

I think the video speaks for it self. LAME!

"I don't want the extra expense of a 3/4 ton for the amount of times I will haul heavy or venture offroad. Been there done that. Living with a 3/4 ton is more costly than a 1/2 ton. I'd rather spend my disposable income on my family instead of a ego truck."

Posted by: Lou_BC | Mar 4, 2014 4:02:08 PM

IS THIS THE SAME LOU THAT SAID YOUR BROTHERS COMPANY MADE THE MISTAKE OF BUYING 1/2 TONS. THAT 1/2 TONS AREN'T HOLDING UP TO THE GRAVEL ROAD ETC.. ABUSE. LOL THAT THE 3/4 TONS LAST LONGER IN THE SAME FIELD?

P.S. DO YOU NEED ME TO REPOST YOUR STATEMENT?

GEEEEZZZZ!

@LouBC,"Ram takes a bigger hit than either Ford or GMC if one starts adding options. The whole "just buy a 3/4 ton" is what Ram PR is selling and the Ram sheeple are lapping it up."

IS THIS THE SAME LOU THAT SAID THE RAM 3500 LOOKED GOOD ON PAPER. THAN RAM WENT OUT AND SPANKED FORD'S F 450?

WHAT TRUCK HANDLED AND TOWED BETTER WITH IT'S LOWEST RATING IN THE 1500 SHOOT OUT? (hint)

GUTS

GLORY

RAM

@HEMI V8 - instead of playing around why don't you try being straight forward and honest.

If one spends most of their time or works in the back country then a HD makes sense.
I do not spend nowhere near the amount of time in the bush that I used to do.
A 1/2 ton with 10 ply tires is adequate for what I am currently doing. I am the only driver so I do not need to worry about (I don't give a sh!t") fleet drivers.

Feel free to post what ever you want and true to your own form you will omit the relevant parts and as always leave the context of the discussion out of the picture.

The other point you criticized - yes, look at the data. Ram drops more capacity as you climb the trim ladder.

Typical Rambo motard sheep club strategy " If you can't beat them with brilliance (or facts) baffle them with sheep sh!t.

@Lou

"The whole "just buy a 3/4 ton" is what Ram PR is selling and the Ram sheeple are lapping it up. "

Exactly. Ram is telling these guys what they should or shouldn't want when it should be the other way around. They will do what ever Ram tells them to do. I still think the best one was whenever they thought the Ram was getting the 5.0L way back when and they were bragging so hard of how much power it will be. Then when they found out that it was Nissan getting the 5.0L and Ram was getting a less powerful 3.0L, they did a complete 180 and tried tell us we don't need that much power in a half ton. And that fuel mileage is better than power. It was classic.

@All1, LouBC, BUY THE CLASS LEADING RAM THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS. THEY COME IN ALL SIZES SHAPES AND POWER TRAINS. LAST I HEARD THEY EVEN HAVE DIFFERENT COLORS.

3.0 DIESEL

3.6 PENTASTAR

5.7 HEMI V8

@LouBC, "instead of playing around why don't you try being straight forward and honest."

Which truck is going to hold up to hauling and towing better a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton?

Which truck is made for WORK?

Which truck is made for PLAY?

@ HEMI V8

Oh really? Okay then. Find me a 4x4 Ram 1500 long bed in the Laramie trim (like my Lariat) that has a tow rating of at least 1,000 lbs more that the 9,500lbs I tow on occasion without me going over my payload. My trailer on average has a tongue weight of 12% (1,140lbs) and I also need another 550lbs for passengers and gear. I don't want to pay extra for 3/4 ton or above neither and I don't need one with my current truck. So what do you got for me?

Hemi V8 is essentially telling everyone not to buy a Ram truck. He says don't buy a half ton Ram because of the payload on a crewcab 4x4 will be less than 1000 lbs, and don't buy a 3/4 ton because they are made in Mexico. I have written Ram off the list.

Hemi V8, You told us not to buy a Ram HD because they are made in Mexico so you can stop with all of the just buy a 3/4 ton talk.

Ram = No good for work or play.

You guys have fallen into Hemi's trap. Talking all about Ram trucks in a Ford post again.

@All1, LouBC, BUY THE CLASS LEADING RAM THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS. THEY COME IN ALL SIZES SHAPES AND POWER TRAINS. LAST I HEARD THEY EVEN HAVE DIFFERENT COLORS.

3.0 DIESEL

3.6 PENTASTAR

5.7 HEMI V8
Posted by: HEMI V8 | Mar 4, 2014 6:48:45 PM

GUTS
GLORY
RAM

@David

Don't get it twisted!

You can get a 2014 RAM 1500 Outdoorsman CrewCab Hemi 4x4 with 1,417 lbs of payload and MAX TOWING 10,050 lbs!

G
G
R!

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/tow_chart/

Stay thirsty my friend!

Oh, looks like HEMI V8 is switching names now to avoid answering me. I guess I will never know what Ram 1500 he is talking about that will fit my requirements.

@All1, How does the biggest rated tow haul truck on paper(F 150). Loose to a lower rated truck(Ram) when put to the task of hauling and towing?

@HEMI V8 - you have admitted that you are buying a truck for play.
Any truck can be used for work or play.

Unless the truck you buy is used to put food on the table; it is a lifestyle vehicle; a luxury; an item for play.

@LouBC, TRUE.

@HemiV8 - one last thing since you brought up the trucks my brother's company buys, they used to let the Field Operations Managers pick any truck they wanted as long as it met a price point. They stopped that practice and started looking at their own maintenance data as well as published data. They combined that with whomever gave them the best price.
Since they went to that that formula they started out with only GMC/Chevy trucks. They now have a mix of GMC/Chevy HD's and Ford F150 4x4's. They haven't purchased a Ram in the last 6 -7 years.
JD Power and Vincentric back that data up. CR gave the nod to Ram not because it scored the highest in reliability but because the Chevy (scored higher in the driving test) was too new to have reliability data.

Good luck with that for play, Hecho en Mexico, Italian owned truck.

So......I guess that is a no HEMI V8? That there is no Ram 1500 that fits my needs like you told me or do you need more time to get back with me?

@All1, How does the biggest rated tow haul truck on paper(F 150). Loose to a lower rated truck(Ram) when put to the task of hauling and towing?

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Mar 4, 2014 10:59:17 PM

@ HEMI V8

Oh really? Okay then. Find me a 4x4 Ram 1500 long bed in the Laramie trim (like my Lariat) that has a tow rating of at least 1,000 lbs more that the 9,500lbs I tow on occasion without me going over my payload. My trailer on average has a tongue weight of 12% (1,140lbs) and I also need another 550lbs for passengers and gear. I don't want to pay extra for 3/4 ton or above neither and I don't need one with my current truck. So what do you got for me?

Posted by: ALL1 | Mar 4, 2014 7:02:56 PM

@All1, "Of course, we fully understand that a number on paper is completely different than proving how capable a truck is in the real world."

PUTC

I asked my question first so........ are you going to answer it or play fanboy dodge ball?

@Lou
What I see is different philosophies by the manufacturers on their trucks. Each one trying to differentiate between each other.

Ram, they are having a bit of success. But I don't think it will go on for much longer. Unless the marketers come up with some new ideas.

Ram's are targeting a different audience than Ford. Looking at the Ram 1/2 ton pickups they seem to be true to form SUVs. They are chasing ride comfort over a ride vs work level of comfort.

The gearing also highlights this. It seems some manufacturers are placing an emphasis on empty FE figures and some are looking more closely at towing performance.

As for the VM diesel. It will tow as well as a V8. What limits the vehicle is it's engineering design, ie, manufacturer limits.

Pickups are like a general purpose fishing rod (pole) not the best at anything, but can be used in many applications.

But once a pickup manufacturer tries to target an area to excel at it will diminish other areas of performance. Classic and easy examples are the Raptor or Power Wagon.

Even our midsizers have limitations regarding their design. To carry just over 3 000lbs do they have a less than perfect ride.

Ram has the opposite, to offer a plush car like ride, it has to have a carlike suspension.

It's all horses for courses.

Some people buy pickups as cars and some as trucks.