Is a Half-Ton Heavy-Duty Pickup Coming?

Group 1 II

By Tim Esterdahl

Half-ton pickup trucks have been getting stronger in terms of frame strength and towing capacity for the past several years. These improvements are pushing the limits on what a traditional half-ton truck is built for. Also, the substantial growth in three-quarter-ton towing capacity is creating a product gap. As a result, will we see more heavy-duty half-ton pickups in the market soon?

The growing use of high-grade steel has created a generation of pickups with stronger frames. This strength combined with new engine improvements leads to half-ton trucks being able to tow a substantial amount of weight. Throw in a larger engine, provide more suspension, beef it up and add better braking in these half-tons and you basically have the same specs of a three-quarter-ton truck from just a decade ago. This type of heavy-duty half-ton is perfect for the occasional hauler who doesn't need/want the larger HD. It also makes a lot of sense for Toyota and Nissan.

Heavy-Duty Versus Half-Ton

For the last few years, HD trucks have been increasing their towing capacity. The latest example of this is the new towing leader, the 2015 Ford F-450 with a maximum towing capacity of 31,200 pounds. In 2005 the same truck had a maximum tow rating of 16,700 pounds.

While, yes, the half-ton and three-quarter-ton segments are substantially different, there is a growing gap between the towing capacities where an HD half-ton could make sense. See the chart below.

HD Half-ton chart photo II

Beefed-Up Half-Ton

Let's state the obvious right here: A three-quarter-ton truck is vastly different from a half-ton. In most cases, the frame and parts are more akin to a locomotive than a car. This means manufacturers need dedicated production lines and parts suppliers to build them. This extra expense could be reduced with a half-ton HD package.

That means manufacturers like Toyota and Nissan that offer only light-duty pickups could bring a heavy-duty package option to their half-ton trucks. These trucks would have:

  • Stronger rear section of the frame
  • Larger axles and springs
  • Upgraded driveshaft parts
  • Tempered transmission and axle gears

In fact, the HD version could share the same production line with its half-ton counterpart and thus be cheaper to build. This would easily translate to more profits. Also, from a marketing/product lineup point of view, it essentially would provide those import players with more rugged-truck, work-truck credibility.

Toyota, Nissan HD Truck Plans

Last year an insider said Toyota was working on an HD half-ton. The speculation is the Tundra is basically already overbuilt and by making a few changes, Toyota could easily add an HD half-ton to its lineup. Plus, with Toyota's production limitations, it could add it to the San Antonio plant without making a huge investment. Lastly, with the Tundra's success/failure (depends on how you see it in the half-ton market) Toyota wouldn't have to try to compete in the competitive HD segment.

Nissan could also follow suit for the same reasons. Like Toyota, Nissan doesn't have the manufacturing facilities Ford, GM and Ram do. Plus, with the Titan getting the Cummins diesel it seems like it could be easily adapted as a heavy-duty hauler. This would bolster Nissan's reasoning for adding the Cummins diesel in the first place, and provide it with a unique item in a hot part of the truck market.

With a booming truck market and profits to be made, it seems increasingly likely that Toyota and Nissan would offer a product like this sooner rather than later.

The increased payload and towing means small/light recreational vehicle owners and toy towers (boats, all-terrain vehicles and others) would jump on it. Additionally, if those truckmakers are smart about pricing and keep it below average three-quarter-ton pricing, they could build a nice niche for themselves. Add to that some cab and or unique bed lengths, and the pool of new truck buyers would only get bigger.

Building a product to meet customers' changing needs, filling a gap in a limited lineup and steering clear of the Detroit Three's three-quarter-ton and one-ton competition seems like a no-brainer for Toyota and Nissan. Unfortunately, neither of these pickup players is good at taking big risks. However, not stepping into this arena may be an even bigger risk if they plan to be around for the long haul.

Cars.com images by Evan Sears; manufacturer images

(editor's note: spec information on the F-150 EcoBoost has been corrected in the data chart.)

F-150 HD

Ram 1500 Tradesman

 

Comments

CT,

For clarity, I wasn't bashing Ford or trying to make them look bad. I was merely trying to point out that there is a gap. I think you misinterpreted my meaning.

-Tim

You guys want to see trolling and bias?!!! Try reading any other Tundra report here!

Seriously, the trolling in reporting and "Subjective" portion of these tests have impacted the results by a great deal!

Ford got bonus points for the man step in 2008.

Then no Tundra in the 2011 V6 shootout? The excuse given was it had an "accident."

The latest example of bias was when the 2013 shootout was timed exactly so the Tundra would show up with a 2013 and not the ALL-NEW 2014 Tundra. But they made sure to get a 2014 Chevy!

Finally, the review of the 2014 Tundra went out of way to be very NEGATIVE towards the Tundra!

This stuff gets to be annoying!

The anti-Tundra bias, jealousy, slander and haters are alive and well on this website!

I am glad that finally someone like Tim Esterdahl is here to talk Tundra and use his first amendment RIGHTS to speak out and keep the BIG 3 owners in check AND stand up for Tundra owners!

I think big 3 owners really resent the Tundra and are scared of what is coming with the 2017 and 2018 NEXT GEN ALL NEW HD HALF TON TUNDRA!

CT,

Why the hate? I don't hate any of the truck makers. Actually, I like to think I am friends with the PR reps and I enjoy driving their trucks.

You seem to be bent on me hating on Ford in this article. That really isn't the case.

-Tim

@CT
Try and put some of your fanboi'ism aside and read what Tim is discussing.

This isn't about Toyota or Nissan being better than one of the Big 2 and Fiat.

It's about the direction that pickups are heading in.

It appears that Toyota and Nissan are moving in a different direction than the Detroit pickups.

Nissan is even looking at a small midsize Frontier.

What Tim is describing is already occurring by even Ford and GM globally in comparison to what you in the US receive as pickups.

Our midsizers would be a Class 2 pickup in the US and you guys receive a similar pickup in a midsizer but they are Class 1.

I meant to mention this before.

Toyota Tundra 1/2-Ton HD Coming – Fact or Fiction
Tim Esterdahl | Jun 25, 2013

Is It Possible?

We have all seen how the Tundra towed the 282,000 lb space shuttle (maybe this is how Toyota got the idea). If you believe the truck is strong enough to tow that, it is easy to consider building a production version!

The truth is that Toyota likely learned a LOT about their truck from testing it to truly see what it is capable of. It would make sense then that they could offer a HD version with upgrades to certain key components to allow it to tow heavier loads. Our thoughts for upgrades revolve around a reinforced frame, improved shocks, reinforced bed, different gearing ratios and enhanced braking capabilities. There is probably some thought into how to improve the engine or reprogram the ECM to improve towing or maybe not. Frankly, most RVers will tell you that the truck can easily tow more than what Toyota says it can on a regular basis. Again, it is really about a limit on payload.

Now, we still have a lot of questions like: Is the frame strong enough? Can the engine handle more of a load? What exactly will be reinforced/changed to handle the increased payload?

The reality though is that Toyota would be building a truck to answer a key consumer demand – an HD truck with increased towing and payload capacity. Could we see this response leading the way to other things like an E-locker? Who knows. It is exciting to think about the Tundra heading more in this direction and becoming more competitive in key segments of the truck market.

Sticker Price Consideration

If you say that this idea could work and there might be a market for it, does it make sense? Let’s look at current price points of the most popular “consumer” setup in trucks which is a Crew Cab with 4WD. According to Cars.com, the 2012 Ford 250 XL SD with a 6.2L V-8 starts at $35,525, the 2012 Chevy’s 2500 LT 6.0L V-8 starts at $39,845 and the 2012 Ram 2500 5.7L V-8 starts at $39,965. Most of these trucks though will add at least a few more thousand based on trim levels and options that most consumers opt for. With the average truck transaction price hovering around $39,000, let’s give these HD versions an average price of $45,000. This is seemingly the middle ground between the loaded $60k+ versions and the basic fleet versions.

The MSRP for a 2013 Toyota Tundra 5.7L V-8 CrewMax starts at $34,930 and we would guess an HD version would run in the $45k+ range. Does it make sense then for Toyota to offer an HD version? Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure, it would give them a competitive option for some customers needing more payload capacity without needing to tow more than 10,000 lbs. Plus, it could quickly get them into the HD market

Brian C,

You are correct, I have written on this before! I think it is an interesting topic and I thought this audience/site was well suited for an update. Plus, the opportunity to talk about the Nissan angle was great.

-Tim

"Tim Esterdahl is not a troll. He really knows his stuff and not just trucks!"

The cherrypicked specs is significant and worth paying attention to. It is also considered trolling. Those kinds of comparisons may be praised on TH, but you won't get away with that here. The problem is not the topic. It is an interesting topic. The problem with the support for his conclusion: supposed gap shown through the faulty chart, and an "insider" which is just TH speculation that is not backed up by the facts. Try working on that ITBC first.

So then is the new 2015 F-150 with the lighter aluminum body considered the new midsize? If that is the case then that is another reason that Ford didn't bring over the Global Ranger. I could see both the Tundra and the Titan both coming out with an HD half ton offered with a diesel option. Toyota and Nissan would have nothing to lose and could carve out a niche for an unfilled need. It will be interesting to see what Nissan does with the next generation of Frontier either it will be a true compact truck or it will be close to a Navara.

What an ignorant story. Mark, you spent like 2 minutes on this?

I own a 2002 F150 7700 that tows 8500 pounds. Ford has since improved this to over 11000 pounds.

Where is the frickin news here. Enjoy another 3 day weekend Mark.

Jeff S.,

That's exactly the comment I was going for. Pretty interesting topic.

-Tim

@Jeff S
That would have been logical to keep on manufacturing cheap pickups.

What is killing the pickup is the 'footprint' method used in CAFE.

Like I've stated, the aluminium pickups will have a cost. They will not be as cheap as a steel pickup. This is where Ram is winning. But as Lou pointed out Ram appears to have FE issue in meeting CAFE requirements.

The Pentastar initially was going to be the saviour engine for Chrysler. The intention was to make a 10% reduction in FE, but this didn't arrive and the best that the Pentastar could muster was 6%-7% FE improvements.

I do think the 2.7 EcoBoost by Ford will encounter the same problems. The efficiency of a gas engine is nearing it's zenith to extract be FE from them will be marginal at best.

The 2.7 EcoBoost will do well to improve on the Pentastar. It's main advantage isn't the 2.7 engine, but the weight reduction of the F-150. Which will not be as great as Ford claim.

Full size pickups will struggle in the future. Maybe that's why Nissan and Toyota have chosen a different path.

Even HDs will need to look at FE under the new system which is very similar to how the EU regulates.

The 5 litre Cummins might become a popular engine in all HDs across the board. But Fiat also has a large range of good diesels.

The new Tundra is most capable truck in market. Heavy-duty not needed, will out haul, tow Chevy Ford Fiat-RAM HD pickup easy!

@Tundraman
So, with your great wisdom, how will Toyota with the Tundra work around CAFE requirements?

It's all well and good to spruik fanboi'istic garbage.

So explain away.

Let's start with the obvious right here: It doesn't make sense for Tim to use the regular cab short bed for his argument. First, as others have already stated, a few months ago he said about "90 percent of truck buyers opt for double cabs or crews". Second, he also said that regular cabs could be going away by 2017 and Tundra could be the first get rid of it. Why use the regular cab if its going away or 90%+ don't even buy one?

He either forgot what he first said, didn't know what he was talking about, or this leads one to believe that the only way he could show that there is a growing gap for the Tundra to fill was with half-ton short beds. I won't assume what his motive was but he suggested a future Tundra could close the gap between the F-150 and F-240 with a 17,000 GCWR and 11,000 lb tow rating on the Tundra. This wouldn't change anything with the F-150. Because the Tundra in this configuration would not be a regular cab short bed. It would be another config that falls behind what is already on the market for Ford.

If he had just left the Ford short beds and Tremor EB out of it, and not introed with "A half-ton heavy-duty pickup truck could fill an open gap in the pickup truck landscape. Will Toyota be first?", his argument would have been a lot stronger in my opinion.

Also, regular cab "short beds" are never max tow. These are usually sport trucks, or cheapskate bottom feeder fleet trucks with base engines and no options. I don't know where he was going with that.

I no explain nothing to you! You domestic fanboy! Chevrolet Ford GMC RAM Nissan are garbage! Toyota is most capable safest truck on earth! You explain! You can't!

@Ken
I do think you are trying to disprove an argument by semantics.

The overall issue with full size 1/2 ton pickups are their footprint size vs FE.

The 1/2 ton pickup needs to obtain better FE to meet CAFE.

That's why Ford and GM are looking at aluminium pickups with smaller efficient engines. Ford and GM would rather keep the status quo, but they can't.

A short wheelbase 1/2 ton has a small footprint, probably smaller than my midsize BT50. What impact will this have on it's FE.

Will Ford make a 2.5 litre Tremor to satify CAFE??

I really think some of you guys need to sit down and look at what is impacting the future (near future) 1/2 ton pickup.

Even Class 3 and above pickups will be impacted by EPA FE requirements.

Class 3 and above will be impacted by the amount of weight they can move vs FE.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are in a bit of a pickle here regarding 1/2 ton pickups.

Regulations and controls have protected them to the point where there are no real alternatives.

The rules and regulations that have protected the US 1/2 ton pickup is now coming home to roost.

The US pickup is the bread and butter of the Detroit manufacturers. The Detroit pickup manufacturers and UAW have lobbied the government to protect the pickup for their own profit and now have literally sh!tted in their own nests.

That has been my argument all along. I don't want to see the full size 1/2 ton disappear or become an expensive toy for the rich, ie, aluminium.

But, hey, many who blog on this site can't see the forest though the trees.

@Ken
I do think you are trying to disprove an argument by semantics.

The overall issue with full size 1/2 ton pickups are their footprint size vs FE.

The 1/2 ton pickup needs to obtain better FE to meet CAFE.

That's why Ford and GM are looking at aluminium pickups with smaller efficient engines. Ford and GM would rather keep the status quo, but they can't.

A short wheelbase 1/2 ton has a small footprint, probably smaller than my midsize BT50. What impact will this have on it's FE.

Will Ford make a 2.5 litre Tremor to satify CAFE??

I really think some of you guys need to sit down and look at what is impacting the future (near future) 1/2 ton pickup.

Even Class 3 and above pickups will be impacted by EPA FE requirements.

Class 3 and above will be impacted by the amount of weight they can move vs FE.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are in a bit of a pickle here regarding 1/2 ton pickups.

Regulations and controls have protected them to the point where there are no real alternatives.

The rules and regulations that have protected the US 1/2 ton pickup is now coming home to roost.

The US pickup is the bread and butter of the Detroit manufacturers. The Detroit pickup manufacturers and UAW have lobbied the government to protect the pickup for their own profit and now have literally sh!tted in their own nests.

That has been my argument all along. I don't want to see the full size 1/2 ton disappear or become an expensive toy for the rich, ie, aluminium.

But, hey, many who blog on this site can't see the forest though the trees.

@Ken
I do think you are trying to disprove an argument by semantics.

The overall issue with full size 1/2 ton pickups are their footprint size vs FE.

The 1/2 ton pickup needs to obtain better FE to meet CAFE.

That's why Ford and GM are looking at aluminium pickups with smaller efficient engines. Ford and GM would rather keep the status quo, but they can't.

A short wheelbase 1/2 ton has a small footprint, probably smaller than my midsize BT50. What impact will this have on it's FE.

Will Ford make a 2.5 litre Tremor to satify CAFE??

I really think some of you guys need to sit down and look at what is impacting the future (near future) 1/2 ton pickup.

Even Class 3 and above pickups will be impacted by EPA FE requirements.

Class 3 and above will be impacted by the amount of weight they can move vs FE.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are in a bit of a pickle here regarding 1/2 ton pickups.

Regulations and controls have protected them to the point where there are no real alternatives.

The rules and regulations that have protected the US 1/2 ton pickup is now coming home to roost.

The US pickup is the bread and butter of the Detroit manufacturers. The Detroit pickup manufacturers and UAW have lobbied the government to protect the pickup for their own profit and now have literally sh!tted in their own nests.

That has been my argument all along. I don't want to see the full size 1/2 ton disappear or become an expensive toy for the rich, ie, aluminium.

But, hey, many who blog on this site can't see the forest though the trees.

@Ken
I do think you are trying to disprove an argument by semantics.

The overall issue with full size 1/2 ton pickups are their footprint size vs FE.

The 1/2 ton pickup needs to obtain better FE to meet CAFE.

That's why Ford and GM are looking at aluminium pickups with smaller efficient engines. Ford and GM would rather keep the status quo, but they can't.

A short wheelbase 1/2 ton has a small footprint, probably smaller than my midsize BT50. What impact will this have on it's FE.

Will Ford make a 2.5 litre Tremor to satify CAFE??

I really think some of you guys need to sit down and look at what is impacting the future (near future) 1/2 ton pickup.

Even Class 3 and above pickups will be impacted by EPA FE requirements.

Class 3 and above will be impacted by the amount of weight they can move vs FE.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are in a bit of a pickle here regarding 1/2 ton pickups.

Regulations and controls have protected them to the point where there are no real alternatives.

The rules and regulations that have protected the US 1/2 ton pickup is now coming home to roost.

The US pickup is the bread and butter of the Detroit manufacturers. The Detroit pickup manufacturers and UAW have lobbied the government to protect the pickup for their own profit and now have literally sh!tted in their own nests.

That has been my argument all along. I don't want to see the full size 1/2 ton disappear or become an expensive toy for the rich, ie, aluminium.

But, hey, many who blog on this site can't see the forest though the trees.

@Ken
I do think you are trying to disprove an argument by semantics.

The overall issue with full size 1/2 ton pickups are their footprint size vs FE.

The 1/2 ton pickup needs to obtain better FE to meet CAFE.

That's why Ford and GM are looking at aluminium pickups with smaller efficient engines. Ford and GM would rather keep the status quo, but they can't.

A short wheelbase 1/2 ton has a small footprint, probably smaller than my midsize BT50. What impact will this have on it's FE.

Will Ford make a 2.5 litre Tremor to satify CAFE??

I really think some of you guys need to sit down and look at what is impacting the future (near future) 1/2 ton pickup.

Even Class 3 and above pickups will be impacted by EPA FE requirements.

Class 3 and above will be impacted by the amount of weight they can move vs FE.

Ford, GM and Chrysler are in a bit of a pickle here regarding 1/2 ton pickups.

Regulations and controls have protected them to the point where there are no real alternatives.

The rules and regulations that have protected the US 1/2 ton pickup is now coming home to roost.

The US pickup is the bread and butter of the Detroit manufacturers. The Detroit pickup manufacturers and UAW have lobbied the government to protect the pickup for their own profit and now have literally sh!tted in their own nests.

That has been my argument all along. I don't want to see the full size 1/2 ton disappear or become an expensive toy for the rich, ie, aluminium.

But, hey, many who blog on this site can't see the forest though the trees.

@ TundraMan If Toyota is most capable safest truck on earth, then how come the GM twins can tow more/have higher payload when they did the same test J2807 that Toyota has done, also the GM twins are the first and only fullsize trucks to be 5 star crash test rated. Import fanbois I swear HAHA

GM truck suck! Can't even design key to start right! LOL! Tundra tow more than you crappy American truck!

@TundraMan
I own a 2012 Mazda 4x4 dual cab 3.2 diesel midsizer.

That isn't a domestic by any stretch of the imagination.

@ TundraMan Proof GM is the safest

http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/car-news/214280/gmc-sierra-chevrolet-silverado-ace-nhtsa-crash-tests.jsp

By earning 5-star overall scores, the Silverado and Sierra became the first pickups to receive a perfect crash-test rating from NHTSA. Each of the GM trucks' full-size pickup rivals -- the Ford F-150, Nissan Titan, RAM 1500 and Toyota Tundra -- earned four stars overall in government crash tests.


Proof they can tow and carry more

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/06/2015-chevy-silverado-1500-and-gmc-sierra-1500-are-j2807-compliant.html


Hey if I was a big time Toyota fan like you TundraMan I be just as pissed off as you are that Toyota dropped the ball LOL!

Mazda is Ford! You and GM fanboy should get a room! I drive the best! Toyota Tundra/Hilux!

@TundraMan
Look at my name, like I stated my pickup is so far removed from a US domestic it isn't funny.

Toyota build competitive vehicles, but they are not the best.

All vehicles have good and bad points.

Pickups are probably the worst all round vehicle.

They don't excel at anything. They are only good at everything. If you want something that excels you must buy a vehicle that specifically designed to excel in a particular area.

That's why there are real trucks, sports cars, vans, etc.

This news story is way off the mark.

The specs listed are pretty lame. Cherry picking at it s finest. Are the fanboys running the site too as opposed to just ruining the site????????????

Posted by: Lou_BC | Jun 20, 2014 11:52:53 AM

< This.

It's not just coincidence the specs listed were cherry picked and the author is the editor of a Tundra fanboy site and drives a Tundra.

@Dave - you raise a valid point that HD 1/2 tons have been around a long time.

The whole compact, small. mid, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, 1 ton etc. nomenclature has been meaningless as a capacity descriptor for decades.
Those terms describe general classes and that is about it. Lines have gotten blurred.

Posted by: Lou_BC | Jun 20, 2014 2:14:48 PM

Exactly one just has to do some quick research to find this out and the pics that is used for this article eres used in one of the historical articles that Dave listed. So the author must have been aware of that before he posted the way off specs and opened the discussion with, "A half-ton heavy-duty pickup truck could fill an open gap in the pickup truck landscape. Will Toyota be first?.

@JL
1. You are describing the here and now. What about in 2 years time? What will Ford have that is a 1/2 HD? Will there be a 5 litre diesel aluminium F-150? I mean really the trucks that the "author" is describing don't really exist yet, even the aluminium F-150 doesn't exist.

2. What will the next Tundra/Titan be like? What will the drivetrain/engine configuration be? Heavier than even the current 1/2 ton pickups, even the current HD 1/2 ton Fords?

3. How is the "author" describing an HD? Is he using an analogy from 30 years ago, or even 15 years ago? Is he actually describing an HD using current trends? Look at he data.

4. I do think you guys should really sit down and re-read this article. It does raise some very interesting points that many on this site never consider.

This article isn't about who can tow the quickest or has the best FE or the most kneecap room in the back seat.

This is about the future direction of the US 1/2 ton and what two manufacturers are considering as an alternative.


"I have been very hard on that site you mentioned as most of what they say is speculation that does not happen or is just flat our wrong. They are quick to bash other automakers but not be true journalist and stand up and Mike Sweers tough questions that challenges things he says that are wrong. So don't go off what they say."


Posted by: AD | Jun 20, 2014 11:45:09 AM


@AD, Here is the HD Rumor Grows story from TundraHEADQUARTERS and follow up comment from hemilol! You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!!!!

Toyota HD Rumor Grows – Survey Hints at New Model

Tim Esterdahl | Aug 01, 2013 | Comments 31

For years, Toyota has teased dealers and fans with the idea of an HD version of their Tundra full-size pickup. We have recently reported that a 1/2 ton HD is in the works. Now, we have more proof that Toyota is up to something.
Toyota HD Rumor Grows - Survey Hints at New Model

Toyota recently surveyed owners about the desire to have more towing and payload. Does this add fuel to the HD rumor?

Thanks to our reader, LJC, who emailed us to say he recently filled out a Toyota Owners’ Intersection Survey that was “directed towards truck owners.” Here is what he had to say:

I just completed a Toyota Owners’ Intersection Survey that was directed towards truck owners. The survey had a number of questions asking about increased towing and payload capacity (about 1/3 of the survey)–I got the impression that Toyota is giving this some serious thought. The capacity figures stated in the survey were 3000lb payload and 12,000lb towing. Also, there were two questions asking “how much I would pay”, the first was $500 and the second $1000. I answered yes to both. There were some other questions as well. One for a spray on bed-liner and a few for a folding tonneau cover. A bummer about the survey is there were no questions for a selectable eLocker. However, at the end of each survey (I get a TOI survey about once a quarter), a “share your thoughts” question was made available. I took the opportunity to express my dissatisfaction with this missing option.

The selectable eLocker aside (sorry LJC!), the questions on that survey about towing and payload sure seem to jive with what we have been hearing for years.

The future of an HD Tundra has been bright and then shaky and then bright. The roller coaster ride seems to follow the way the economy has gone the past 7 years or so. Now, with the economy rebounding thanks to full-size truck sales, the time for an HD Tundra has never seemed brighter. And it seems after all the ups and downs, Toyota might never have lost the desire to offer one, they just might have had to put their plans on hold while the economy took its time coming around.

It is worth mentioning though that an HD diesel doesn’t seem to be in the cards at all. There were no questions on the survey about diesel.

Yet, we have been told before it is coming and then nothing. Is it time, once again, to believe that a HD Tundra is coming?

hemi lol says:
August 1, 2013 at 10:21 am

I get tired of the BS on PUTC. the bias on that site is overwhelming at times!

I dont understand how they always end up with a junk tire stripped model. everyone else sent something with the goods on it……

I have been lobbying for an HD with Mike Sweers everytime i talk to him! lol

"You are describing the here and now. What about in 2 years time?"

@BAFO, The same 17kGCWR and 11-12k+ half tons that people here already went over and Tim missed are here now and will be here 2 years from now.

The point is don't come in with there was an error excuse. Just fix the cherry picked graph that you used for the entire basis of your widening gap argument and don't ask if Tundra will be first to a 17GCWR AND 12K TOWING.

Also you, BAFO, need to stay consistent. In other articles you are going with the lines are blurred argument so just get rid of the half-tons, and now you are going with the gap is widening so we need more half-tons when its Tundra/Nissan. Way to stay consistent with your anti-US trolling. You aren't fooling anyone.

@JL
I've never stated to "get rid of" half ton pickups.

That's what others write like yourself to try and base a baseless argument you have. So really don't just write dribble. You see I'm not a fan boi.

So you can stop with the generation of a midsize vs full size argument that is none existent and has never existed.

I do think you've missed the point of this.

Do you understand the difference in regulations that will be controlling a Class 1 and 2 pickup vs a Class 3 and over in the near future.

This article is in regards to the difference in Class 2 and Class 3 pickups and how Nissan and Toyota are going to make a so called HD that is really a half ton or a half ton that is really an HD.

What are Ford and GM doing, they are making an aluminium pickup, not a Class 3 "half ton".

F-150 has the smallest brakes, with plastic pistons, the smallest weakest rear-end gear set. The smallest ball joints and the absolute smallest wheel bearings.

Yet it has the highest manufacturer Tow and Pay-Load Ratings.

If Ford sounds like a company you trust, then go right ahead and buy a F-150.

Ram, Tundra, and possibly 2016 Titan for me.

The 2007+ Tundra is overbuilt. It would take little for it to be a "heavy half."

Anecdotal, but I have thousands and thousands of miles on my Tundra at 8000lbs GVW--and that includes mild off-roading and sometimes also pulling a trailer. My only mods are good tires and a slightly beefed up suspension. Does my frame have a little flex? Yep, that is how it can survive the cycling of heavy loading and running empty and still perform like a champ.

I don't change vehicles every few years--I buy new and run them into the ground. But I'd certainly look at an even heavier built Tundra for my next pickup.

@BC
I am not sure what your point is. All I am saying is Toyota as 3 options on the table going forward 1. Stop making the Tundra, 2. Add more tech, weight reduction and a change in engineering "overbuilt" strategy and stay in the 1/2 ton race and lastly 3. Add weight and go up to the HD market as it might be easier and cheaper to add weight than to lose it. I am sorry but they can't stay on the 2nd gen platform that I own for CAFE reasons. Which one of them they will do I have no idea. The problem is making a HD 1/2 ton on the current platform would seem to be odd when you might not be able to stay on the current platform much longer. Now if a HD 1/2 ton is a rumor for the 4th gen Tundra I might believe it. The 3rd gen Tundra seems like a bridge from the 2nd gen Tundra to the 4th gen Tundra when a new design will debut or the project may be canceled.

Why has this discussion turned into an idiotic brand basing fest?
Back on topic......

"While, yes, the half-ton and three-quarter-ton segments are substantially different, there is a growing gap between the towing capacities where an HD half-ton could make sense."

There isn't a big gap between truck classes, if anything the lines are more blurred especially if one looks at towing. The only real gap is cargo capcity.

Sure, there is a gap if I pick the F150 diesel and compare it to an F150 Tremor.

Lets look at the top end of the F150 ratings. I'm using Crewcab models since they are the most common configuration.
Most F150 4x4 long wheel base crew 4x4's sit around 1500 lb. (1,158).
The max cargo F150 crew 4x4 long box is 2,305.
The F250 Crew 6.2 gasser 4x4 short box is 3,144lb.
The long box version is 3,034lb.
We have roughly double the capacity when compared to the regular supercrew.
The max cargo Supercrew is 700-800 lb short of the F250.

When we look at towing there is a negligible difference.
A standard F150 Supercrew 4x4 is around 9,000 lb.
A max tow equipped F150 is 11,300 lb.

An F250 crew 4x4 with 3.73's is 12,175.
the same truck with 4.30 is 12,475.

Please point out the growing gap?????????

I have nothing against the Tundra and have defended it many times.

I'm questioning the validity of this story and the accuracy of the content.

I do have to give Tim Esterdahl kudos for commenting on his story and clarifying some points.

That is something woefully lacking on this site - editorial staff that interact with readers and pay attention to the comments.


"Sure, there is a gap if I pick the F150 diesel and compare it to an F150 Tremor."

Edit.....
Meant to say F150 diesel.

there I go again - F450. Looks like my autocorrect likes F150.

Sorry -
" Most F150 4x4 long wheel base crew 4x4's sit around 1500 lb. (1,158)."
Meant "1,558"

@Lou_BC
I do think this article could have presented the argument differently.

There is some contention regarding how and what the article is all about.

Maybe Tim can clarify what the intent and what direction this article is trying to head in.

As for the brand bashing, well what can you expect from the school kids that are on this site.

From my 2nd comment Tim responded that I was looking at what he was posing correctly.

I do see this article as more of what is Nissan and Toyota going to do in the future. We do know and Tim did point out that the Big 3 make a HD half ton. But I'm looking at this as a Class 3 half ton, which is a heavy half ton pickup.

Sort of like the Power Wagon, but more useful with a decent load. The Power Wagon even though it's an HD isn't really an HD.

Lou_BC put down the beer brother or try more texting to get use to your new phone LOL just had to give you sh&*t

Is Tim you're new Daddy BAFO? LMAO

@johnny doe - funny. I'l blame it on a busy day with my face buried in the workplace computer researching client information.

I agree with Lou, the lines have already been blurred. Ford already has a heavy-duty half ton with 2300 lbs payload and 11,300 lbs towing, and going up on the 2015. GM already has a heavy-duty with 2000 lbs payload and 12,000 lbs towing on the 2014 and 2015.

Tim E is a Tundra hype man. The Tundra survey for $500 - $1000 sounds more like a max trailer tow package than a HD Tundra. Bigger Radiator, HD shocks, springs, tires, ITBC, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But Toyota wouldn't be the first with that kind of truck.

"There isn't a big gap between truck classes, if anything the lines are more blurred especially if one looks at towing. The only real gap is cargo capcity.

Sure, there is a gap if I pick the F150 diesel and compare it to an F150 Tremor."

"Please point out the growing gap?????????"

Lou, That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want to hate on the Tundra fans, but this article was all fanboy hype.

"I have nothing against the Tundra and have defended it many times. I'm questioning the validity of this story and the accuracy of the content."

Bingo! Kudos to Lou.

@DeverMike/Paul/Tom Lemon/Greg Baird/TRX4Tom/Dave/Hemi V8/Tom Terrific/sandman 4x4/lautenslager/zveria/Bob/US Truck Driver/Glenn/Jason/Hemi Rampage/smartest truck guy/Maxx/SuperDuty37/Ken/Ron/johnny doe/jim/ALL1/Frank/Idahoe Joe/The Guy/AD/Casey/papa jim/Young Guy/BeeBe/Steve/Chris/The truck guy/Alex/Mr Chow/Yessir/All Americans/Scott/Buy American or say Bye to America/Ram Big Horn 1500/Hemi Monster/Tom Wilkinson at Chevy or whoever you want to call yourself.

Quit the crap, really.

It's getting long in the tooth.

You want to debate, but it has to be on your terms.

Learn to debate with good information, then we might be able to have a decent debate.

Opinions are good, but if they are only your view to support the UAW, then how good are they. Look at what you guys have done to Detroit.

Terror tactics (union tactics) don't work on me.

If PUTC wants the UAW or whatever to control this site I suppose it's their decision.

It's not kids like I've been told by PUTC.

@ Lou_BC Yeah I know how it feels to be dog a@@ tired and just blah, I've made my share of typos like that lol

@chris
How can there be a blur?

There is a definite line in the sand regarding what constitutes a Class 3 or a Class 2 truck. It goes by weight.

From a capability perspective yes it can be blurry.

The pickup truck market doesn't care about you guys that already own a late model pickup.
They don't care what you think of their changes and new designs.
They are after that first time buyer that never owned a pickup before.
The manufactures see the same thing I see when I look around of pickup's on the highways I see 90% of them with empty beds and not towing anything.
15-20 years ago pickups were not as popular as they are today.
You guys owned a pickup when pickups weren't cool to own and nobody else owned one, now everybody owns one!
They are designing pickups to the new market, the new people that never owned one before.
They don't care what you lifetime pickup owners think.
The baby boomer market is dying and a new generation with money have different wants and needs in a pickup.
In 10 years you guys are going to be too old to drive a pickup, you'll be in a old age home craping yourself



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