Let the Games Begin: Ford and Ram Do Battle Over Best-in-Class Claims


Right about the time Ford was showing journalists its 2015 model-year Ford Super Dutys, the Ford legal team was sending a Ram cease-and-desist letter regarding Ram's advertising claiming that the 2014 Ram 3500 HD Cummins-equipped full-size pickup truck offered the segment's highest maximum towing capacity of 30,000 pounds (gooseneck or fifth wheel).

Ford believes it has the best-in-class pickup with its newly released 2015 F-450 Super Duty, now rated to pull 31,200 pounds. Beyond the obvious, meaning that it looks like the Ram HD is a Class 3 pickup and the Ford looks to be a Class 4 pickup, the distinctions are further complicated by how each truckmaker calculates that number. Ram says its vehicle follows the Society of Automotive Engineers' J2807 guidelines (an agreed upon list of standards for verifying towing capacity created by representatives from each truckmaker and towing industry professionals), while Ford says it will officially adopt the SAE guidelines when the Super Duty's new platform arrives, likely in 2016. Ram was quick to point out that means Ford is using its own methods to determine towing capacity, and those methods may or may not follow the SAE standards.

According to Automotive News, both Ford and Ram representatives are sticking to their stories and accusing the other of not understanding the issues properly.

Much of the argument in this towing war of words hinges on the the fact that both the Ram 3500 and Ford F-450 have an official gross vehicle weight rating — a factor used by most pickup truck users to determine work capability — of 14,000 pounds. However, according to Automotive News, when adding the F-450's curb weight and max payload capacity, its GVWR total is 14,061 pounds, which would officially put the F-450 into a different weight class and make its "best-in-class" claim something of a misnomer.

So the methods Ford uses to determine its maximum payload number could be seen by some as less than fair. It's worth noting that the debate about max payload numbers has a long history, with Ford still using very questionable practices. For example, Ford typically uses stripped models to get the highest max payload number possible. That means for a given vehicle's stated curb weight number, it is quite likely it was achieved by removing the spare tire, the radio or navigation system, and very likely the jack and center console as well. One ounce of truck removed, of course, means one more ounce of carrying capacity can be added to that model. Ethical? Probably not. But against the rules? No.

GM and Ram (and Toyota and Nissan for that matter) do not go to the lengths detailed by Automotive News that Ford does, but that could change if there isn't some kind of agreed-upon standard for calculating those numbers. In the meantime, we don't expect this to be settled soon. It wouldn't surprise us if both the Ram 3500 and Ford F-450 ran commercials stating they both lead the segment in max towing. To be honest, we're not sure anyone who knows pickups really pays attention to those types of hyperbolic claims. All we care about is how each of the comparably equipped and optioned trucks compare when towing the same type of loads up the same hills on the same day in a straight-up head-to-head apples-to-apples comparison. And that's why we'll have our 2014 Ultimate Heavy-Duty Challenge ready for you in two weeks.

Cars.com image by Bruce Smith

(Editor's Note: this story has been modified on 7/28 to reflect a more accurate list of the optinal equipment that could potentially be removed when determining a pickup's maximum payload. Ford does not remove seats for calculations.)


"I do agree with the sensible posters that Ford is full of crap on this one. "

I do agree with Lou, that Ford is full of crap on this one.

Also thank you All1 for siding with RAM and supporting Ramtards.
Ramtards say thank you all Fortards for your support. You'll be Ramtardised soon.

@ zviera - wow, you agreed with me................. is the world ending?

I know my comment has you completely confused.


Unlike like the Ramtards, I can think for myself. I don't conform to what a brand tells me I should conform to. It has nothing to with siding with Ram, and is more about what I think is right, and what I think is wrong. Facts are facts regardless of any bias on my part. I would not expect that from the Ramtard club because of their "Ram is Allah" attitude so they are incapable of grasping the concept thinking for themselves or that Ram is not perfect.

On another note. It is a bit odd that TFL.truck got a totally different outcome towing the same trucks as PUTC in the recent short tow off they did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCygT6mGcT8

ram should be credited with doing what everybody wanted and ford shouldnt have been talking so much lol.

"Unlike like the Ramtards, I can think for myself. I don't conform to what a brand tells me I should conform to. "

That's what I did and do. I didn't have any truck before. I could buy what ever I want. If I wanted to play it safe and go with horde I would buy a Ford . Don't you think? But I didn't. I think, make research, value my needs, talk to friends with other experience and bought a RAM. Underdog by your measures, so don't give me this crap about thinking again. You didn't think, you bought what horde is buying.
It's like telling me that McDonald consumers think and Montana Steak House is a crap.


" I could buy what ever I want."

As long as it is a Ram.

"I could buy what ever I want. If I wanted to play it safe and go with horde I would buy a Ford . Don't you think?"

So just because people buy a Ford, they are going with a "horde"? Wow, your perception is a bit screwed ya think? Then why are you praising Ram for selling more? If they sell more than any other make then they will eventually sell the most or the new "Horde", and you would have to find a new brand of truck since you don't want to conform to the "horde".

This goes back to the "It's only good unless Ram is best at it, and if they aren't then it is crap so let's make fun of it" mentality you guys have. If Ram was number one in sales then I would bet my left nut that you guys would be praising it day and night it for being numbers one in sales like you guys do when they have good months. Since it isn't number one in sales and another brand is, you guys do your best to down play it and even liken it to McDonald's. I wonder if you guys would compare Ram to being McDonald's if they were number one in sales? I guess we may never know.

I told you in our last go round how I decided on my truck, and if that does not conform to your "Ram only" mentality then you can just lick my balls because I couldn't care less what you think about it.

So spare me zvierra, you are not fooling anyone.

If i was going to spend 70,000 plus on a truck you can bet i would test each and every one of them. Make my decision on what i think is the best truck. This video on the new river doesn't show me much except for how each truck can pull these trailers so well uphill. We need more info on how they feel seat of the pants. How does the sound system sound how does the gps work how do the seats feel. How is the visibility. How is the ride quality. Etc...

Please PUTC gives us more than just the numbers on your up coming test.

"So spare me zvierra, you are not fooling anyone."
You are right about that. I don't. But you are trying hard.

@Mohamed Zviera - you think for yourself? Then why did it take 5 pages of debate to admit the Ram did not provide a truck for everyone's needs?

@All1 - interesting TFL video. I'd be more inclined to go with the Chevy because they have the most reliable drivetrain.


Your comebacks are......


@ALL1 - you have a knack of providing video's appropriate to the conversation ;)

The one thing that annoyed me about the TFL video and other tests is the focus on "soft touch" plastics.

I'm old enough to remember trucks with metal dashes and glove-boxes.

Who drives around feeling up the interiors of their trucks other than journalists and Ram Jihadists?

@ Lou BC,

Knock off the Muslim crap boy.

"@Mohamed Zviera - you think for yourself? Then why did it take 5 pages of debate to admit the Ram did not provide a truck for everyone's needs?"

Where did you get that?

RAM provide truck for everyone's needs except All1. That's it.
Citation needed.

"Ok All1I will put you out of this misery, there is not a RAM truck to fit your needs."

Posted by: zviera | Jul 24, 2014 8:03:36 PM


All1 is special RAM customer. He require RAM which

-Has to be able to tow at least 10,500lbs if needed

-Has to have a payload of at least 1,750lbs

It can't be RAM 2500 and must have Ecoboost.
Price is not important at all.

Actually Zviera, I could have went with the 411hp/434lb-ft 6.2L in my F150, but I like the way the Ecoboost drove a lot better. You also might want to add all 250/2500s to that "It can't be RAM 2500". You don't like my requirements? Piss off because you are not paying for my truck.

Let's look at your requirements.

-It can't be a turbocharged engine.

-Most importantly, it must be a Ram.

-It must be a V8

Hmm, that only eaves the Ram 1500or 2500 Hemi's. Am I busting your balls over you requirements? No, so why do you feel that you have to touch my balls over my requirements? Get off my balls about, okay?

I'm starting to think you have a mancrush one me since you like to bring me up so much and are so concerned with what I do in my life. Sorry, I don't swing that way, but I might take a mouth hug when no ones looking.

Where did you find my requirements? I never posted them.
Citation needed.

I guessed Z, and something tells me I am almost dead on. If I am not then oh well. I don't care enough about you to progress it further.

No. You are just lier.

The guys at FLT know less about trucks and towing then most average truck owners. They are idiots to say the least.
I don't believe anything they say about any truck. Now the morone points out that the trailer weighs 12057 lbs. (That is the GVWR) Anyone that can read, would know that is the maximum that trailer is allowed to weigh fully loaded. It don't not tell us if the trailer is fully loaded, or if the trailer being towed is dry weight, which can be 2000+ lbs less.

Coming from you Z, that is a compliment. Thanks.

No problem. I didn't wanna be rude.

Heh. You went way passed being rude a long time ago.

Not at all. You don't really want to know what I think of you. That's why I said politely, that you are just lier.

@Ram Big Horn 1500 - "Knock off the Muslim crap boy."

I never mentioned Muslims.

I wouldn't want to insult them by comparing them to Ram Fan boys.



Do people still use that term?

Slavery may be dead in the USA but types like you aren't.


Who in their right mind would buy a Fiat truck? I guess the same ones that would buy a dodge... hahahaha



Ram Jihad

No Z, it is not that I don't want to know. It's that I don't really care what you think of me. If you want to say it then say it, if you don't then don't. Either way, you aren't hurting my feelings. In order for your words to have any effect would require me to give a damn. Sorry, fresh out of give-a-damns for you.

J.D powers just announced ram owners are most happiest when they have cock in their mouth

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. And you said I didn't. So you are good. Why do you have to write about it.

Because I want to write about Z.



Ram Jihad

Thank you Lou to being on our side, but you are taking it too far.

That's ok All1 , but here is nobody to help you. I am not a doctor Phill.

Don't need help. I am just fine.

So if you just fine, can you tell me where did you find my requirements? I never posted them. 
Stop talking around and around, like you usually do.

Did you miss where I said.....

"I guessed Z, and something tells me I am almost dead on. If I am not then oh well. I don't care enough about you to progress it further.
Posted by: ALL1 | Jul 28, 2014 9:27:10 PM"

Like I said, I made an educated guess based from what you have stated in our various run ins. You have stated that you will not buy a turbocharged engine. It is obvious that you will not buy any other 1500/2500/3500 truck besides a Ram. Lastly, I remember you going on and on about on how much you think trucks should have V8s and how much more dependable V8s were so I made a guess based off passed conversations with you. If I am wrong here then please tell me which other trucks you would consider buying or don't. Either way, no skin off my nuts what you do or don't do.

Well, so I didn't post any requirements. You just guess. At least we cleared this issue.

If you remember from my posts, I was considering even Titan, Toyota Tundra my friend has and I was happy with my 2 Toyotas before, waiting for RAM turbo diesel with V8 Cummins since 2008, Ford 5L and of course RAM with HEMI and RAM 2500 with 6.7 Cummins.
You on other hand just Ford 1500 and ..........Ford 1500.

Sorry, Ford doesn't make 1500 yet. They make just F150 with inflated payload numbers.


Wow, and you called me a liar?

" I was considering even Titan, Toyota Tundra my friend has and I was happy with my 2 Toyotas before"

Two Toyota's? What happens to the third one or did you just have one? Was it 23, 20, 18, or 15 years ago? You can't seem to get your story straight.

Here you state you had 2 Toyota's.

"PS: I had a two Toyotas Liteace and Hiace with a little problems, but I would still call them one of the most reliable cars on a pair wit the RAM.
Posted by: zviera | Oct 28, 2012 12:02:54 AM"


Here you also posted you had just one Toyota Hiace 18 years ago.

"@HEMI V8 I use to have Toyota Hiace 2.5L diesel 18 years ago....
Posted by: zviera | Nov 4, 2013 10:45:34 PM"


Here you posted you had two Toyota's 23 years ago.

"I had my first Toyota Liteace diesel 23 years ago then Toyota Hiace diesel, then modern Volkswagen Sharan turbodiesel with variable turbo geometry and common rail.
Posted by: zviera | Feb 6, 2014 10:28:34 PM"


Here you are telling a story about a Toyota from 20 years ago.

"Let me tell you my story with Toyota Hiace Diesel from 20 years ago.
Posted by: zviera | Mar 6, 2014 12:16:17 PM"


And here you post you had 3 Toyota's 15 years ago.

"BTW, I am european guy, who had 3 Toyotas. Hiace , Previa and Hilux, diesels, 2.5L or 2L. Great cars. But 15 years ago. So please try harder and bring me some numbers.Not just your feelings. LOL.
Posted by: zviera | Nov 7, 2010 10:17:52 PM"


So which is it. Did you have one, two, three Toyota diesels. Also, was it 23, 20, 18, or 15 years ago because tyou keep bouncing around here.


"waiting for RAM turbo diesel with V8 Cummins since 2008,.....and RAM 2500 with 6.7 Cummins....."

Funny here to because you seem to post against owning anything with turbocharged engines.

"....What for? No better fuel economy, no more power, just headache and prying every day to survive 9200lb towing without any engine , turbo or trany break down? No thanks. I don't need that. I will let you to test it for your company money or lease you paying.
Keep us posted. On second thought, you don't have to. I can just Google your problems
You won't find any HEMI 5.7 turbo problems . None. Like Lou said, no turbo no turbo problems.
He is right sometimes, when he doesn't use his brain.
Posted by: zviera | Mar 6, 2014 10:27:12 AM"


Both of those Cummins has Turbos yet you speak of how you don't want turbos to have turbo problems.

Oh, and you also forgot about this post that you posted to me how you want to stay away from diesels in cold weather......

"Market was full of diesel engines and Government increased diesel fuel taxes. People were screwed again. So now, it's almost equal to gasoline engine for economy measure. Diesel engine is premium engine in there.
Same thing is going to happen at this market but we have diesel prices higher than gasoline already.
Some people will jump at diesel waive to save money and when market gets saturated, government increases taxes. At least we have a choice now and I will value all the inputs when on the market for new truck. Even HEMI 6.4 MDS looks appealing to me in this cold weather. It will start on one not two batteries like diesel needed anytime.
And I would really enjoy that, before they screw us over like they did in Europe or Australia. When hunting in -27 C , I needed to start generator for block heater for my friend Cummins and boost batteries to start his engine. You wouldn't like to hear that sound.
Then I started to think how good is to have gasoline engine in here. Diesel has the purpose though. It will work for many customers.
And please, it's not worth to argue with Bafo. I learned that hard way. I am ready to punch him to the face like a men. As soon as you present some right arguments and prove him wrong, he hides and will attack you on personal level .
But you are aware of that. You described him perfectly.
Posted by: zviera | Feb 6, 2014 10:28:34 PM"


You have many more posts towards Big Al how diesel won't work for you because of cold weather. Yet in other articles you say you want a diesel. I don't get it. You are going back and forth saying one thing in one article and arguing the complete opposite in another.

So this has me calling bullsh!it to that post above. Who's calling who a liar?

Is it okay to put wax on rust? I want to polish up my 2003 Dodge Ram. There is rust above both rear wheels and behind the front tires on the lower fenders.

any tips on what I can do about paint peeling off the hood to the primer?

Also any advice on how to get oil stains off my driveway where I park my truck?


I have the gayest 2003... oowee just saying it gives me a big boner... it's poking out about two inches... I better run to my truck and play some culture club tunes. hehehe

I won't be buying a Ford anytime soon however, This new Ford F 150 with Ram influenced front end does look handsome. Ford's Ram inspired front end on the Super Duty has a face only Ford fans drunk on the kool aid could love. After all this site does say state your opinion and this is mine. : )

oh I hope I didn't offend any Ford owners cause I do like to hang around truck stops and suck on ford drivers big meat. Just because I don't care for the trucks doesn't mean I wont swallow ever last drop

Nothing better then posting about how great Ram trucks are... I spend my entire day on this site doing just that.

I get my fat sister to walk by naked and slide a finger in the creases to get a ample supply of sweat and cheese... it can sustain me for hours while I brag about Ram.

Maybe I should watch another Ram commercial and get pumped up and be ready to post more of the same ford fire stories or maybe I`ll just move my truck and clean up the oil stains or maybe I`ll find some new ford fire stories or maybe I`ll oh what is that smell... did I shat myself again?

You just proved, that I have chosen best truck and best engine for my needs.
I didn't buy turbo, I didn't buy diesel, I didn't buy turbodiesel, I didn't buy turbo gasoline. I wanted, but it wouldn't be right decision.

I bought HEMI 5.7 V8 MDS.

There is a difference between what you want and what's the right decision. But you don't know that. You wanted more power then HEMI and there was nothing on the market but Ford. People in NA like the power I have been told by born here friend and he is right.
The Mpg what Ecoboost owners like to talk about is just excuse for the wife to justify this purchase. Ford was counting on it and got your money. Ford lies, like you do. That's the reason I won't buy Ford from now on. They lie to their customers.

I had Fiat 127 from 1989 to 1991 my dad bought in 1970.
I had Toyota Liteace from 1991 to 1995 Toyota Hiace from 1995 to 1999 and Volkswagen Sharan from 1999 to 2000. I was driving Toyota Previa and Hilux for short time my friend had, but I don't count them, because they were not mine.
You can calculate precisely how many years was that before.








Bullsh!t, there are articles where you do nothing but down diesels in arguments with Big Al saying you don't like them and they don't fit your needs, and then turn right around and say they are the best thing in the world for you in another when the article is about a Cummins or Ecodiesel. You flip flop depending on whether a diesel is you are discussing is a Ram product or not. The same goes for the turbo argument. There are posts where you argue with me on how torches era are unreliable and how you don't want an engine with one when the turbo engine we are discussing is a Ford engine. Then you will do a complete 180 and say you would like to have turbocharged engine when it is a product offered in a Ram. So yeah, I call bullsh!t since it has been shown that you change your mind depending on whether you arguing for a Ram product or against another makes product in the article.

Wow, it to you over 25 minutes based on your posts time stamps to come up with that make believe timeline. If it were real then it would have taken a lot less time for you to come up with the dates. I can name you all the trucks I had and the years in less than 5 minutes and it took you 5 times that time. Also, this doesn't explain how you went from owning three Toyota's, then one, and then two. If you would have really owned three Toyota's then you would have posted it here to further you point, but you didn't.

You are also inconsistent with how many turbocharged engines you told me you owned as well. I distinctively remember you telling me you owned two turbocharged engines in your lifetime when you were posting on how much you hate turbocharged engines yet you have posted elsewhere that you have owned more then that.

Lastly, you are inconsistent in your "turbos won't last" argument as well. You have posted saying that turbochargers don't last based on your own experiences yet on one of those articles I posted above you go on about how you had no trouble for many miles out of the turbocharged Toyota's you had and would compare their quality to your Ram.

Like is said, BULLSH!T.

Didn't those model numbers, 150/1500, 250/2500, 350/3500 450/4500, once represent their vehicle class--in essence their "real" capabilities. At that rate, isn't Ford effectively claiming their F-450 is a Class 4 truck and not a Class 3? Yet now they're trying to call it a Class 3 JUST to one-up Ram?

Yes, I do know that for all intents and purposes those model names are meaningless today; but maybe it's time someone stepped in and re-established the rules. Even now, while Silverado/Sierra represent GM's pickup trucks, they still tend to carry those "class rating" numbers as well. In the long run, it would make for more effective buyer understanding so that they can buy what they actually need and want, not something grossly over- or under-capable based on mere marketing speak.

Of course, as far as *I* am concerned, that kind of towing capability should be Class 4 or higher anyway and require a CDL just to drive it, no matter what load it may carry or tow at the time.

"I am curious to see how Ford thinks their new 3.5 v-6 non-Turbo will tow 7600 pounds, ..."

Probably the same way the old 200 horsepower 5.0 V8 did 30 years ago--slow but steady. Just because it isn't as powerful as a turbo or the modern V8s doesn't mean it can't perform the same way the older V8s did with the same power as the current V6. Not everybody needs the fastest thing on the roads and if they only tow occasionally--such as a camping trailer to a local state park or RV park, they may not see the need to spend thousands more for a stronger V8 engine that gets worse gas mileage or a turbo-V6 that does only slightly better. I know I'm not willing to pay that much more when I certainly won't be using the rated capacity of such. Heck, my '08 Jeep Wrangler has more towing capacity than any of the campers I look at.

Keep in mind that so far Ford is selling more V6 models than V8 or diesels this year--something over 55% I believe. What's surprising them more is how many of those V6s are non-turbo models. That tells me two things: Power isn't everything and reliability is more important than performance. Ok, third thing is Price Matters. The standard V6 is less expensive than any other engine making the overall truck less expensive.

Sheesh. After two pages of commentary, it again comes down to a flame war between individuals. A pity. Ah well, let's see how you guys handle this.

If I had to buy a new truck today--let's say a 150/1500-class truck, I'd choose the Ford despite the fact that I hate almost everything about the brand; for me they've demonstrated the worst reliability of any brand. That's a personal assessment based on personal experience--not any analysis of opinion polls or statistics.

Why? Because they're the only brand that makes the extended cab the way I want it--with clamshell back door instead of the stupid faux-4-door look that makes access to the back MORE difficult, not less. Both GM and RAM have ruined their trucks for me by that one modification.

RAM would be my second choice because I simply like the looks of it better and it still more than meets the need--despite, as some of you put it--the lowest actual load capacity of the three brands. I'd much rather have the RAM over the Ford, but one factor that I really NEED has been screwed up by them.

GM is my last choice across the board, despite the fact that they look better than Ford and offer better capability than the "equivalent" RAM. This has nothing to do with the recent spate of GM recalls, but the simple fact that they've taken the worst of both other brands and put them into one product. Remember, I'm talking 150/1500-class trucks.

If we drop down one size, then it's a near toss-up between GM's C-twins over the Toyota Tacoma. The Tacoma has every advantage over the C-twins for me as they all use the clamshell (suicide) doors and the Tacoma is simply smaller, fitting my real needs and desires far more closely. But... I want an American brand name, not Japanese. This is not prejudice against the Japanese themselves but rather a desire to support an American brand name over foreign. Only once in my life have I owned a Japanese-branded vehicle and while I truly liked it, it wasn't American. On the other hand, it certainly LOOKED better than it's Dodge-branded twin which was why I bought it over the Dodge D-50.

If I do end up ever buying a truck off the showroom floor, for now it's likely to be one of two brands: Fiat or Tesla. One is unlikely to hit American showrooms though certainly comes in at the approximate size I want while the other is more than 5 years away and likely to be bigger than I really want. That doesn't mean I'll be buying another used truck as DenverMike and others insist is the only way I buy trucks, it simply means I won't be buying another truck AT ALL until my real needs and desires are met. I still have the F-150 I bought 2.5 years ago and I expect to have a low-mileage Ranger 'given' to me (which bypasses the "buying used" argument) in the near future. The F-150's future is assured--I'll be getting rid of it as soon as I can find a suitable replacement. What that replacement will be is still under consideration.

I like how the article mentioned Chevy is focusing on what actually matters to 99% of consumers which is, highest maximum bumper pull without weight distribution, and best overall performance going and stopping and towing with confidence. I think that this fact will shine through in the upcoming HD shootout, much to the dismay of the two roid raging bodybuilders grunting and snorting in the corner of the gym.

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