Well this should definitely dispel the rumors that the scope of interest in Ecodiesel trucks was the initial set of orders.

What I found interesting from the press release is that 60% of buyers for the Ecodiesel trucks are conquest over competitors. It leads me to consider, why is this so?

As the press release correctly puts it, pickups are a fiercely competitive segment If people are defecting on other brands, you have to ask the question of why.

I believe that it is because Ram is offering something that people want, or something that they have been wanting for awhile.

A lot of the drawbacks of the Ecodiesel truck that people like ALL1 will bring up are in fact, non-issues for most consumers. The pickup market doesn't always follow the logic found in the comments section here.

I'm not by any means saying that the Ecodiesel is the right truck for everyone, however, the most important aspect of the truck market is what is happening in the real world, the hard numbers, not what is happening here in the comments section.

That being said, I am still waiting to see sales figures on the Ecodiesel trucks.

I want to see the EcoDiesel Ram vs the 2.7 EcoBoost F150.

@Alex
I'm sure that is coming. It is a natural competitor for the Ecodiesel.

Actually the Ecodiesel's 9,200lbs towing capacity isn't bad at all, it certainly is better on paper than the 2.7l towing capacity of 8,500lbs.

It's just too bad that people will not always be able to easily make use of the Ecodiesel's full towing capacity. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, because that's not primarily what people are buying them for.

Like I said earlier, the comments will no doubt get sidetracked by such drawbacks of the Ecodiesel, but oh well that is life here on PUTC.

"The initial predictions Ram made about the possible sales rate of the small EcoDiesel engine ran between 5 and 10 percent."

Auto News says the estimate was 30%.

"Previously, Ram's Reid Bigland estimated that the EcoDiesel could make up as much as 30 percent of 1500 sales."

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/ram-1500-ecodiesel-selling-hotcakes-so-far

@Hemi Monster

The only issue I see with the Ecodiesel is it's payload especially in higher trims. That would be a very big issue for anyone looking to tow even slightly less than moderate loads with a cab full of people. If you are not going to be towing that much then the payload is a non issue. Although if you are not towing that much then a 3.6L might give you the same cost per mile.

Funny thing is I ran into an Ecodiesel Ram owner at the pump earlier tonight in Floresville. It was a crew cab Laramie 4x4 with a big front grill guard bumper that had to weigh at least an extra 75 lbs and a big tool box that had to weigh close to 50-75 lbs by itself. I asked how he like the truck and he said he loved it. He was proud of it and rightfully so. I asked him if he bought it just for mileage or if he towed anything as well. He said that he bought it to tow his 5,000 lb RV with him and his family , but haven't got a chance to to it yet. I asked what the payload was on the door and he didn't even know what I was talking about. He said the salesman told him he had 1,500 lbs payload which is why they call it a 1500. Yes, I about died laughing, but I kept it in because I didn't want to piss in his Cherios especially since he was so proud of it which he had every right to be.

I asked him if I can take a look inside. I wasn't actually trying to see inside because my sister has about the identical truck but with a Hemi, but was actually trying to take a peak at his payload sticker on his door. It stated 927lbs. I did the math in my head subtracting the weight of the front bumper, the tool box(assuming it had maybe 25 lbs worth of tools in it), the 5,000 lb trailer he said he tows, and his family. Like I said earlier I didn't want to piss in his Cherios because he was so happy about his new truck. I congratulated him and he went on his way. As he drove away, I wondered how many people out there that are just like him. Probably more that I would like to know.

As far as the other stuff I bring up HEMI M, it is only because I don't think the Ecodiesel is anywhere near the power of the Hemi or Ecoboost like some say it is. People like to compare them fuel wise even though they are not on the same level power and capabilities wise. If you shop for a truck like you are supposed to then these trucks would not even be cross shopped unless it is a really tall 3.31 gear in an Ecoboost up against a really short 3.92 gear in an Ecodiesel. Those are the only two ratios that are even close capabilities wise and fuel wise although the Ecoboost in that ratio is more capable by about 500 lbs or so which is kind of a moot point. It just comes down to what you want more, power or fuel economy.

The only other thing I have against this diesel although this diesel does serve it's mpg purpose well that Ram intended it to. It is just that I wish it were slightly bigger putting out more power. Maybe a 4.0L diesel with 300 hp and 500 lb-ft. That is just my preference though. I prefer power over fuel economy to a point. However, it is a fine engine and I think it will serve those looking to get fuel mileage well.

@Hemi Monster

"Actually the Ecodiesel's 9,200lbs towing capacity isn't bad at all, it certainly is better on paper than the 2.7l towing capacity of 8,500lbs."

The 9,200 lbs towing with the Ecodiesel is only with a regular cab. Ford usually advertises their highest towing numbers in 4 door 2wd configurations, but we will have to see when the tow charts come out. A 4 door 2wd configuration in a Ram Tradesman Ecodiesel, the tow rating is 8,800 lbs.

if dodge made a single cab standard bed ecodiesel i would buy one in a heart beat

@ALL1
You are correct in certain respects. People should be concerned with their payload, but few people bother to take a minute to determine what it is.

For the record I wouldn't buy an Ecodiesel for towing anywhere near 9200lbs. Neither would I get a 2.7 Ecoboost for doing that either.

My point is that the Ecodiesel is doing better than expected. Why is that? That is in spite of the drawbacks of the Ram 1500. People may not be fully aware of the limited payload, but on a broader scale, people generally understand the uses of a 1500 truck vs what a 2500 or 3500 could be used for.

Some people who own Ecodiesels no doubt will unknowingly exceed the payload limit. Other people will be just fine. It all depends on how the truck is being used.

What I am saying is that I really am curious about how these trucks are being used in the real world. I also want to know what is helping them sell well. As the press release stated, buyer are coming from other brands.

Give me a break, he'll be fine towing that trailer. I've seen ford tempos towing that back in the 80's

It's actually good to see those numbers of diesels sold.

As time goes by more and more manufacturers will offer diesel as an economical alternative.

The sales of the diesel Ram has exceeded what I would have thought possible.

Ram took the gamble and it is paying handsomely.

The best thing is that both the new 2.7-litre petrol from Ford and the 3-litre diesel from VM Motori is made with blocks in CGI provided by hightech from the Swedish Company Sintercast. Let them fight.

Reasons I would NEVER own a diesel
#1 Diesels have a turbo, turbo breaks down
#2 Diesel fuel pumps are few and far between
#3 Diesel is hard to start in the cold winter
#4 Diesel fuel is almost $1 more per gallon than gasoline
#5 The smell of the diesel exhaust oozes thru the cab
#6 Oil changes are expensive, use 10 qts, expensive oil
#7 Diesel fuel is dirty, always changing fuel filters
#8 The noise and vibration the diesel engine make
#9 Slow acceleration of a diesel
#10, Diesels not safe for the environment, cause global warming

@Tom#3 Wow! Stop living in the 70's man!
Congratulations to Ram for "seeing" what people want and then building it. They have been leading the way in desirable engine options for a couple years now. I'm not saying they are the best, most powerful, or most fuel efficient- but they are covering the bases better than Ford or GM right now. Only thing with the upcharge for the diesels- when the economy tanks- and it will, nobody will be buying.

@Tom#3
Diesel fuel is all around us now.
Fuel filters do need changed, on average every 20K mile.
Does require more oil but oil change intervals are farther apart.
With the DPF and EGR it is a cleaner burning, less emissions then a gas motor. And there is zero smell.
Go onto Banks website and start reading about diesel motors competing in races.

@ALL1,

Your comments on the dealership story is exactly what I have been talking about for awhile now, it doesn't stop there with Ram, its all manufactures and dealers do the same thing, when I say all, I mean the ones I have talked too, not one was able to tell me what I could do in the payload department, I previously owned a 09 ram with the hemi, and that dealer told me I could tow a 8500 lb camper, which is why I was buying it, turned out, I was over weight with my current 6500lb camper because of the tongue weight on it, now in a f250 diesel and not worried about travel trailers anymore, the point is, I really wish dealers knew a thing about towing, but the flip side of the coin is, most people don't care anyway, so they will still buy the ecodiesel as an example and tow/haul whatever they want....

I think this is excellent! that motor is a very very very good one!
This will get GM to pickup its feet. They have the ability and the engineering to achieve similar results.

I am in the market for a truck but don't want to give up all of the capability of my old F250 just to get better fuel economy. The low capacity of the Ram kills that truck for me so I plan to buy a 2015 F150 with max payload package as soon as it is available. If Ram had the payload I would probably buy the Ram instead. I love the the air suspension option.

This will pull a 5K trailer fine even with the grill guard. An old guy in my neighborhood used to pull that with a Dodge Intrepid back in the 90's. It was an airstream trailer and he had the big tow morrors clipped on the front fenders.

The underlying problems with this engine are that it's too big for the fuel saving bunch like myself but it's too small for the folks that need to haul stuff.

It's also a very expensive option making the existing trucks and powertrains the option that makes sense for most buyers. The people who can afford to piss away money on big noisy trucks are going to buy a truck with a much larger, much noisier diesel. Not this puny thing.

If Tom#3 is wrong and it's not going to rattle and make noise and fumes, the novelty of owning one of these because it's got a diesel and all of your neighbors are going to know it every time you drive by their house, then it's going to fail at that too.

I predict very low sales numbers and eventual discontinuation of this medium sized diesel engine.

Folks did under estimate how much buyers would gravitate towards a 1/2 ton diesel.
I would take a diesel over a gas just for this fact alone:
The drop off in fuel mileage with a diesel while under a load (towing, hauling etc) is much less compared with a gas.
Ford will sell it's share of Eco-Boost engines but a diesel is the way to go in my eyes for both empty and "full" usage to maintain fuel mileage numbers.
GM and Ford will recognize this sales trait and join in the parade.
Come one, come all! The more the Mary.

The underlying problems with this engine are that it's too big for the fuel saving bunch like myself but it's too small for the folks that need to haul stuff.

Posted by: maXx | Sep 30, 2014 8:27:52 AM

@maXx
What "smaller" engine is out there for full size trucks that you would use? I can't think of a single engine besides the Ecodiesel that is 3.0l or less. That will change when the 2.7l Ecoboost comes out, but will it match the Ecodiesel FE?

Please straighten me out on this because I'm a little confused.

Is the problem the weight carrying capacity or the gear ratio RAM is choosing?

To the tool who posted above, yes the EcoDiesel is going to get at least a couple mpg better than the 2.7. That doesn't mean people won't be comparing them. You have lower purchase price, cheaper fuel, slightly worse fuel economy vs a more expensive engine and fuel, slightly better fuel economy. 325HP is hardly "tuned up so high." Especially given that the Focus RS will have 350HP out of a 2.3L EcoBoost. You live in a dichotomous world where one of them has to be great and the other has to be crap. The real world will prove that both engines are fantastic in their own way. If I were in the market for a new half-ton, I honestly don't know which one I would pick until the reports are in and I had driven both.

I personally love the fact that a Ram 1500 ecodiesel has *demonstrated* superior fuel mileage on the highway--a published reporter claiming in excess of 30mpg average so far on a cross-country drive that includes not only highway mileage but also in-town mileage starting with a 3-hour traffic jam in Manhattan and including several major cities during the course of the review.

However, while this fuel mileage is great, the cost of the fuel, on average, is 50¢ per gallon HIGHER than regular gas and typically 20¢ higher than premium--at least in the NEC and southeast where I have myself driven within the last two months. So the question arises as to whether the 20%-30% fuel economy improvement is worth the added cost of both engine and fuel itself.

And of course, why does it NEED to be so large? I would estimate that between 80%-90% of all full-size truck owners NOT part of a corporate fleet have no need for a full sized truck for any purpose other than as a status symbol. I feel sorry that so many people need to make airs because they're so insecure about themselves.

@Roadwhale, just because someone likes to drive a truck doesn't mean they are insecure. Some people like to sit up high and have lots of room. How many people drive four door cars that never have anyone in the back seat? I mean that's a wast as well. Most people could get by with a Smart Car. I still don't feel a pickup is a status symbol. Most car people don't realize how much they cost and pickup drivers still won't be caught driving a pickup to the yaught club or 5 star restaurant.

Didn't I read somewhere that the ecoboost needed hightest gas to run properly when towing? If that's the case,HT gas is the same price as diesel in my neck of the woods.

@mackintire

The weight carrying capacity is the downside, not the gearing. The engine is fine to tow what it is rated with its gearing, but you will hit you max payload long before you hit it's max tow rating. This is why I said that Ram should have a heavy duty payload package in the Ram 1500 for those who want the Ecodiesel, but want to be able to haul more or at least have the payload to match the tow ratting.

I think those buying the Ecodiesel right now are those who either don't need the payload because they don't tow that much or are too ignorant to know what payload is and how to find it. This is why I think all payload and tow numbers should be on window stickers plain as day. Those that are concerned about being legal and within spec would not be able to buy an Ecodiesel (especially in a higher trim) so an HD payload package with maybe the coil springs they put on the Power Wagon might be just what they need. However, some see this as me bashing Ram(even though it is not) and it quickly gets shot down because they believe all Ram's are perfect for everyone right off the show room floor. Saying otherwise is sacrilegious.

For all the math experts out there that keep throwing out the fact that diesel costs more... In NH/ME area the diesel is 30 cents more per gallon, which is a 12% increase over regular gas... So is a 12% increase in cost worth the 20-30% increase in MPG...

@Alan

good try, Alan but it's not that simple. Diesel engines cost a LOT more to build. The additional upfront cost, plus the higher cost of fuel, plus the additional time that a diesel needs to warm up on cool mornings... Ain't that simple.

GM's powertrain options are looking more and more hopeless by the day.

@Jack: " How many people drive four door cars that never have anyone in the back seat? I mean that's a wast as well. "

That's a very bad argument when you consider that nobody really builds 2-door cars any more except for "Sport Coupes" and hyper-econoboxes--and most of those are 4-door as well. Just as I hate full-sized trucks, I hate that _I_don't_have_the_choice_between_coupe_or_sedan_ of any model car I really like; it's sedan or nothing. Literally, that's the problem with full-sized trucks as well, with the VERY LIMITED exceptions of the Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Pathfinder--both Japanese models when what I really want is an American brand. Even the Colorado/Canyon are too large for my taste and needs, but at least they're only as large as 20-year-old full sized models and not the Road Whales of today.

Even with the extra costs, its nice to see another option available to the public. Keep it up!!

ps. I like how the comments here are civilized!! I actually enjoyed reading it.

20% diesels is impressive number for N/A. RAM has all the basis covered. Some notorious payload complainers will always contribute same post, but I would like to know, who buys those 3L TurboDiesels, because there is many customers who doesn't give a damn about it.
I think, there is many small business owners, who buys this as a great business truck and personal truck as well. They don't need payload of 2500 class , they pull some contractor trailer with empty cabin and on the weekend go for holidays with wife or alone and pull some small travel trailer or small boat efficiently and very, very comfortably . His own company pays the bill up front, but he keeps this truck for long run saving money on the business and personal use.

There is many scenarios why people buys this diesel and I am happy, that RAM is the first one , who listens their customers and their small diesel is success.

I am speeding up the global worming with my HEMI, driving circles around my neighborhood , so I can buy this great engine in the distance future.

People talking about RAM rear coil suspension week payload doesn't realize, it's not about coils.RAM can get there any coils for any payload they want. It's about the frame. Leaf springs divides pressure to the frame to the 2 points . Coil, to the one. I am pretty sure RAM will be pushed by ford and gm to make some frame changes to address this in the future redesign.
Or maybe not, maybe people needed more payload will buy just RAM 2500 instead, where this payload is addressed already.
There is plenty options for RAM customers, but non for small diesel competition ones.
I think this great 3L TurboDiesel in RAM 2500 would be even more successful and future will bring this option to RAM customers and VM Motori and RAM will need to build another factory. RAM is ready to adjust any competition threads and plays their cards very well.
I can't wait for September numbers.

I think the real revelation will be when Nissan hits the market with the Cummins diesel. I would imagine the engine alone will give Ram some competition. I know there are folks out there that would buy the truck just because of the engine. I am a die hard Dodge/Ram guy, but I would consider a Cummins Titan. However, i never liked the way it looked. If that improves, I might consider for a millisecond a Nissan. Exciting times for pickups

@ BenThere
I think it all depends on pricing. Nissan is going to kill Titan with pricing IMO.

It's nice to see this new diesel engine doing well.

Ya see, I knew it. Even though they can say everything else is junk in post after post, you even dare mention that a Ram isn't perfect the way Ram builds it them you are labeled as a Ram bashing hater.

2500 is NOT a truck class, it is a model number. In fact a Ram 1500 and 2500 are in the same truck class which is class 2.

Also, it is not about having the payload of a 2500. It is about having a payload that matches your tow rating. What is the point of saying a truck can tow 8,500lbs if it is already over its payload towing half that with your family in the vehicle? Ram should offer a HD payload package so the payload of the Ecodiesel can tow the 8,500lbs rating Ram gives it. Take for instance the F150 Limited. Due to its plush suspension it only has a starting payload of 1,300lbs which is a lot less than other trims. This is why Ford only rated the Limited to tow 7,300lbs even with a 3.73, and not the 11,000lbs of other trims with the same engine and rear gear. They made the tow rating match the payload, and not just give it a huge towing number even though your payload will not allow you to ever tow that much. This is all I am saying. Make the Ecodiesel payload match the tow rating Ram says it can do by offering an HD payload package for those wanting to use the Ecodiesel to it's full towing capabilities without going over its payload just towing half of what it is rated at. It is NOT bashing.

@All1
Maybe RAM can't do that , because of single pressure point from springs and they need to update the rear part of the frame, maybe they don't want to compromise comfortable drive,
maybe they don't want to just cannibalized RAM 2500 and they could easily change numbers on the sticker. My experience is, that, even when I load all my toys and trailer and go forestry , very bad, not maintained road , my truck never bottomed , so I think, there is extra room for payload which I really like.

Maybe their main objective was this.

The pitch of the springs shown in the accompanying graphic show how the springs are canted and "bent" at the BPL position (BPL=Body Part Loaded- this means a loading of 2 each 150 lb passengers, full fluids, and 1/2 payload all combined to be the base point of design for the vehicle) to allow the reactions to motion of the ground contact patch ("where the rubber meets the road", to use an old marketing phrase of another company) to be efficiently controlled and isolated from disturbing the ride quality and stability of the vehicle.

What ever the reason is, this business strategy works for RAM very well.

They sure did have every excuse in the book for the f150 2.7 mpg. 100 miles, crew cab, ac on, give me a break. 16-17 mpg on mainly highway driving is epic fail. I was expecting real word highway mpg for that truck 26-28. I don't see who in there right mind would buy that engine, flat out stupid. Wether that translates into selling at low volume or not? Probably not bunch of dumbass tree hugers will buy them up.

What is the point of Ram giving an Ecodiesel an 8,800lb tow rating if it's payload will never allow it to tow that much?

It is good that Ram has to increase production of the Ecodiesel. It shows that people want good fuel economy.

I also agree with HemiMonster. Most buyers do not pay attention to cargo capacity nor it is a primary consideration when purchasing a truck.

All1's post shows where a big part of the problem lies - salesmen. They are either clueless or careless. They care about making their commission.

It will be interesting to see how the Duramax Colorado compares to the Ram Ecodiesel.

@All1
You raised this RAM 1500 payload and towing question million times in this forum.I would suggest to contact RAM directly, present your case and payload and towing calculations and see what they will say and let us know then.

@Lou BC

I partially agree with you on it being the sales man's responsibility. In a day an age where all this info is readily available, consumer should take more responsibility in getting this email information for themselves.

It is funny that most people have been saying that salesman do not know anything for years if not decades yet people still listen to them for vehicles advice or specs. My advice to everyone, stop listening to salesman and start researching for one's self. Put yourself in a position to make an educated decision. After all, it is a 40k truck purchase we are talking about here. If a salesman doesn't start off by asking you what your needs and requirements out of a vehicle and is just trying to sale you you something off his lot, then you might want to find another salesman. If you know more about the product than they do, then you might want to find another salesman. If they are more concerned about how the price meets your monthly payment then how the vehicle fits your needs, then you might need a new salesman.

Other people that can help are sights just like these. Mark can make things like payload more known. Or better yet, how to properly shop for a truck and what to look for to ensure you get a truck that fits your needs. Mark Williams, if you are reading this then I would gladly help out in that article.

So, yeah I do see the salesman being at fault, but he is not the only one.

Zviera, well then don't come at me with your "Ram has all the payload it needs" then. I am seriously not trying to bash Ram with this even though you guys think I am. I see an HD payload package as only a plus for Ram. I don't see how so many would be against that. I think it is just that you guys automatically take what ever I say as a bash towards Ram even though it isn't. I know Ram guys, my brother in law being one of them, that ask the same question I do about payload so it isn't just a Ford guy trying to pick on Ram.

@ALL1 - caveat emptor is the ultimate doctrine. I've always gone into a dealer lot knowing exactly what I wanted but I do get the vibe that most don't.
The guy who was trying to sell me the F150 I purchased was clueless. He even started making excuses for his stupidity when I called him out on some of the comments he made.
The same thing happened this past summer when I went looking for an ecodiesel to test drive. Even the dealership owner tried to con me (and my kids are friends with his kids in the same private school).

I do think that people expect salesmen to screw them on the actual sale but assume (wrongly) that they know the product they are selling. The don't even call them salesmen or salespeople any more. The term sales advisor, sales consultant, or product advisor are names I encounter all of the time.

@ALL1
The reason why is because of people like yourself who live and sell by 'Best in Class'.

Whilst the US motor vehicle industry is so involved in the 'Best in Class' mentality you will constantly have this.

The manufacturers will push the limit of truth and lies. Ford will do the same, GM will do the same, as will any manufacturer.

We don't have that situation no where's near as bad in Australia.

Lack of reasonable consumer regulations allow for this to occur.

Also, look at the market that Ram are enticing into the pickup market. They want the SUV style buyer.

As I've stated along with others, 80% of US pickups are not used to their maximum. They are SUVs, similar to here in Australia I might add as well.

Continually talking up pickups as if they offer so much is a fallacy. Many people in the US and the globe can live day to day with just a sedan or hatch even towing a small utility trailer.

Almost all pickups sold are wants, and what you are talking about means little. Or Ram wouldn't be increasing sales.

So, what does this matter and what are you selling?

Get over it.

@All1
RAM does have all the payload it needs for everybody except you.
It's just about to pick the right model, because like you said, RAM 1500 and RAM2500 are from the same class 2.

Are you going to ask RAM about the same question you presented in here? I am just curious to know if you really want to get some answer, or you just enjoy to bring this questions in to any topic.

@Tom#3
You are so uninformed and out of the loop with your logic about diesels. Do yourself a favor and go school your brain about the new diesels then report back with more logic info.

Ok, after reading all these funny comments, I will comment. I'm a commercial fleet mgr for Chrysler. First off, the ram 1500 and 2500 are 2 very different trucks and not in the same class. The payload on a ram Eco is on the low side but, I have personally pulled a 7500 poi d trailer with it with no problems. Also about nissan and cummins, the cummins engine was first designed for the ram 1500 but did not get the fuel mileage that dodge was trying to achieve. So nissan took the 5.0 cummins. Any other question, feel free to ask

I just ordered a Eco diesel, the ratio I used as my benchmark is 1000 lbs payload with 8000 lbs towing. This with an allowance of three people in the cab. The truck meets my standards plus serves me well as a commuter. I don't need two vehicles, it does it all. For me, at 35K, it better.

Most of the ecodiesels will not be able to do this because of their build and axle. I ordered a quad cab (6'4" bed) and a 3.92 axle and took out the 4x4.

The quad cab has plenty of space; it is a truck remember. The MPG will not be effected unless I'm over 60 mph. The 4x4 would have been nice but I really don't need it in my woods.