2015 4x4 Challenge: Ram Rebel Vs. Toyota Tundra TRD Pro


As new-truck buyers continue to be drawn to the half-ton pickup truck segment, there can be no doubt that truckmakers will offer more specialized versions for them to choose from. Ram is probably the best at this right now, offering 11 trim levels of the 1500, each with its own distinct personality. One of our favorite personalities, no matter which brand, is the off-road package — as long as it's supported with the proper mechanicals.

A few years ago we compared several of the best 4x4 packages on the market against one another in our Ultimate 4x4 Shootout, pitting the Ford SVT Raptor against the Ram Power Wagon, the Toyota Tacoma TRD Baja and the Nissan Frontier PRO-4X. The results of that contest weren't close, with the Raptor walking away from the others. For our 2015 4x4 Challenge, we've taken a different approach.

Things have changed since our 2012 test: Ford's Raptor has taken a year off and will return with an all-aluminum 2017 version next year; the Power Wagon has upgraded to a 6.4-liter Hemi V-8 with multiple new trim levels; and Toyota has created an all-new, more aggressive TRD Pro trim level for its Tundra, Tacoma and 4Runner. In addition, Ram has added a rugged and athletic Rebel that not only sports a new grille and tailgate treatment, it also includes quite a few other high-adventure-oriented features.

Given that the new Raptor is still a ways off and that the Power Wagon is a heavy-duty pickup, we took the two newest 4x4 half-ton entries — the Ram Rebel and the Toyota Tundra TRD Pro — and matched them in a head-to-head competition focused on their off-road prowess. The truth is, although they might look like they're taking different strategies, these two trucks have quite a bit in common. Both trucks weigh within 40 pounds of each other, both have upgraded suspensions, aluminum wheels and aggressive tires, sporty interiors, dual exhausts, part-time 4x4 systems (with the exact same 2.64:1 low-range ratio) and powerful V-8 engines.

Here's what our challengers have:


2015 Ram 1500 Rebel 4x4


The 2015 Ram Rebel 1500 (only offered in crew-cab short-bed configurations) had a base price of $45,915 (price includes a destination fee). However, our Flame Red 4x4 test truck came with a 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 (a $1,150 upgrade from the base 3.6-liter V-6 only available on 4x2 models) rated at 395 horsepower and 410 pounds-feet of torque; it had the standard four-corner adjustable air suspension. Additionally, the Rebel was fitted with 3.92:1 axle gears, an eight-speed automatic transmission ($500), unique interior and exterior grille work, badges and materials, dual exhausts and 33-inch E-rated (stronger) tires. Our truck also came with these options: the RamBox ($1,295); the upgraded Uconnect multimedia system with a large screen and navigation ($1,005); a backup camera with the Park Assist Group ($595); the Luxury Group ($560) that includes heated and lighted side mirrors, auto dimming, vanity mirrors and an overhead console with a programmable garage door opener; a spray-in bedliner ($475); an integrated trailer brake controller ($230); a rear limited-slip differential ($325); the Rebel instrument cluster ($175); extra skid plating ($150); and a 32-gallon fuel tank ($75). All totaled, our test Ram listed for $52,450 and has an EPA-rated city/highway/combined fuel economy of 15/21/17 mpg.


For a larger version of the 2015 Ram 1500 Rebel Monroney, click on the picture above.


2015 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro 4x4


Our Inferno Red Toyota Tundra TRD Pro test truck had a base price of $45,045 (including a destination charge) and had relatively few options. All TRD Pros use the DOHC 32-valve all-aluminum 5.7-liter V-8 rated at 381 hp and 401 pounds-feet of torque. The engine was mated to a six-speed transmission and had 4.30:1 axle gears. The heart of the TRD Pro is underneath the truck; it comes standard with longer front coil springs that give the front end 2 inches of lift. The rear springs are unique as well and provide just more than 1 inch of additional lift to the rear; both front and rear springs are tamed with high-performance remote-reservoir Bilstein racing shocks specifically designed to absorb hard impacts to keep the wheels settled and calm even over the worst terrain. The Tundra TRD Pro has unique black-out exterior badging on the grille, the side of the truck and the tailgate, and a stamped TRD Pro logo in the bed; it also has true dual exhausts. The only optional pieces on our test Tundra were the drop-in bedliner ($365), adjustable tie-down hooks ($45) for the bedrails and the upgraded 285/70R17E BFG All-Terrain T/A KO tires and aluminum wheels ($3,290). All totaled, including a destination fee, out test pickup had a price of $48,700 and has an EPA-rated city/highway/combined fuel economy of 13/17/15 mpg.


For a larger version of the 2015 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro Monroney, click on the picture above. Note that the Monroney does not reflect the costs of the bedliner and upgraded tires our test truck came with.

We tested these trucks for several days on various California rock trails, hill climbs, and river washes at the Hungry Valley State Vehicular Recreation Area in Gorman. We then went to one of the largest sand dune areas in the country, Dumont Dunes in the Mojave Desert, pushing each truck (and our photographers) to their heat-stroke limits. Finally, we made our way to higher elevations at Big Bear Lake, in the San Bernardino National Forest, east of Los Angeles; the lake sits at 7,000 feet. We took both trucks on a meandering mountain trail mostly made of decomposed granite that wound through rain-soaked backcountry valleys and mountain peaks. Let's see how they performed.

2015_4X4_WYG_Final (2)

For a larger version of the chart, click on the picture above.

Cars.com photos by Evan Sears


Overview | Fuel Economy | Test Measurements | Going Slow | Going Fast | What the Judges Said | Results






Where is the F-150 FX4 or Chevy/Sierra Z71? I understand that you guys didn't want to test the "all out" off roaders like the Raptor or Power Wagon, and only wanted to focus on "light" off roaders with slight off road modifications from the factory. So why wasn't the FX4 and Z71 in this test since they fit that bill perfectly and are the only two out of these "light" off road truck with locking differentials? That doesn't make sense.

@Carl, the fx4 and Z71 are a level less then these trucks. A standard TRD or a Ram Outdoorsman would compete with those trucks. These trucks have a raised suspension, better off-road tires and other goodies.

$50K for a 4x4 pickup... Really??? That kind of money to thrash around the desert, off-road, through the woods, and over the rocks? I know there are those affluent aficionados that can drop that kind of coin on a toy... for the rest of us it's fun to read and dream. How about an "Everyman's 4x4 Review?" I can imagine the average person going home to the significant other to proudly announce... Hey, guess what? I just spent over $50K on a pickup truck...

The ram has a sad look to it. Why?

I think the Rebel is misunderstood. It's got fancy front shocks. It's got 285/70 tires. That's really about it. Otherwise, no lockers, no lift, no lower range transfer case gearing, no disconnecting sway bar, nothing. It's NOT a totally different animal than, say, a Ford FX4 or a Chevy Z71.

What Ram has done is they have made the truck LOOK different and by doing so they've pulled the wool over the eyes of magazine editors and potential buyers. This is NOT a "special" truck that is worth $50K in any stretch of the imagination.

The Power Wagon is only $1,000 more in base price and will walk all over the Rebel any day of the week. Shop wisely, people.

Toyota... well.. it's still a Toyota. Over-rated and over-priced.


I will have to diagram with you on being a level down. The FX4 has a lot of the same goodies these trucks have like special factory shocks and then sone. The FX4 has hill decent control which these trucks do not. The FX4 has a rear selectable locker and E-LSD in the front and rear which these trucks do not. The FX4 has more underbody skid plate protection than the Rebel as well. So aside from the tires, the Rebel is nothing special when it comes to an off road package.

The z71 is a joke when it comes to off roaring, 4 inches of ground clearance might be enough to drive over the lawn, the fx4 does have a locker but the new ones are pretty low although not as bad as the z71.


The FX4 is too low? It's lowest ground clearance is 9.4 inches which is taller than the lowest ground clearance of both of these trucks. The FX4 also has a greater approach angle, departure angle than the Rebel does even with the Rebels suspension raised to its highest setting so where are you getting your info?

The front end of the FX4 sits very low. I do recall a shoot of the new aluminium FX4 traversing a muddy track with the nose dragging in the mud.

Using only US full size pickups in a test will show that a full size of some sort will win.

They are just to large for me for off roading. The capability from FE, load and off road prowess is limited due to their size.

A full size pickup for it's size would be good and viable if they could move 3 000lbs off road in the bed.

They do look the part and pretty though.

The Ram Rebel needs the VM diesel and a six speed manual transmission, that would make it a much better off road vehicle.

It would probably make it a better off road proposition than a Raptor.

@Big AL

The air dam on the front of the F150 is meant to be removed when off roading and even states so in the owners manual. This is why it is was made to be easily removed.

I don't think anyone here cares if these trucks are too big for your off roading on the other side of the planet where these trucks aren't even available. Although from what I have read here it seems that you don't even know what off roading is to even make such statements because I see a lot of open space desert when I see images of Australia.

Also, none of your midsize four dor utes with a pickup bed are even rated to handle 3,000 lbs payload on pavement much less off road. Please show me this midsize four door truck with a pickup bed that is rated to carry 3,000 lbs.

So, you buy an off road package to disassemble your vehicle to off road???

That would be a downer in any decision I made in buying an off road vehicle.

Cummins, also re-read what I wrote regarding the capability of a full size off road pickup. I didn't make any suggestion that a global mid size can carry 3 000lbs off road.

Sort of like saying a F-650 is acceptable to carry 2 500lbs. Don't you think for the size of the F-650 it should carry more?

Just because you are in a desert doesn't mean either that a larger vehicle is better. I don't see many US full size pickups in global deserts, especially gasoline ones.

Why do you not comprehend.

Here's a cut and paste;
"The ride, on the other hand, can be frustrating. Let’s just be clear – we drove a single-cab tray-back with a payload of 1533 kilograms (which is massive!)"

1555kg= 3428lb


Cummins, you'd better get back to the "books", it seems many of you school kids should read about the wider world.

Sorry, I typed in 1 555kg not 1533kg. It's still a smidgen over 3 000lbs.

Or, are you like DenverMike and will state that US lbs are different and heavier than Australian pounds?

1533kg= 3379lb

Yes, you can take it off if you want to. What is wrong with that? If you want it there then leave it on. If you don't then take it off yourself or have the dealer do it at the time of delivery which is what I did with mine. That is why it was made to be easily removed so you can have the option.

Then why are you chastising these trucks for not being able to carry 3,000 lbsin a 4WD four door configuration if there is not even a midsize four door pickup truck over there that is rated the same . Why even bring it up or try to put these trucks down if what you got can't even do what you are chastising these truck for?

Yes, in the desert a larger truck is better to me than small midsize with no room and no power. The reason why you see full size truck in global deserts(besides Saudi Arabi) is because they are offered in those places. EveN a person with half a brain can cone to the conclusion that you will not see a lot of full size trucks in places they are sold, but I guess some just do not comprehend.

Re-read what I wrote, then come back. Chastising?? Boy, you do make overstatements, especially concerning Fords.

Are you a Ford fan by any chance?

Become objective, a Ford is only a pile of aluminium and plastic, it isn't something to endear.

It like a refrigerator. Any fridge is great, if it can keep the beers cold.

A pickup is no different.

Big AL

Yes you did chastise them when you said...

"A full size pickup for it's size would be good and viable if they could move 3 000lbs off road in the bed"

There is not even a four door midsize over there in Australia that can do that without being modified so saying such a thing is like you downing someone for not being able to something that you yourself can't even do.

Are you a small midsizer diesel fan by any chance?

Become objective. A small diesel in a tiny truck is only a pile of metal and plastic, it isn't something to endear and you should only be biased to them.

@ Oolong Kaloofid. My guess is that most of the people who buy these things buy them only for the image and never do any real offroading with them. I live a hour away for the mountains and see so many Tacoma TRD Offroads, Xterra's and 4 Runners not to mention pick up trucks that look like they haven't even seen a gravel road.

Again, re-read what I wrote. Did you have a hard day at school?

I never made mention of midsize pickups or made a comparison. You are.

Do you guys in the US have comprehension as a part of your curriculum in school. Ask your teacher to give you some comprehension lessons. This will aid you in conversing here on PUTC.

@Big AL

And re read what I wrote of asking you how you can bash trucks over here for not being rated to haul 3,000 lbs off road when there is not a midsize four door pickup that can do it over there. Why even chastise when you can't do it yourself? Why even point it out if you guys don't have anything that can do what you are doing our trucks for? So if you are going to down it, then show me a 4WD four door midsize pickup truck with a bed you got over there that can haul 3,000 lbs off road that allows you to say anything about the truck here?

Bashing??? Again another attempt at trowling???

Come on, mate. Boy, grow up.

I will not bite at your retorts.

Go back and read what I wrote. I wrote for the size of a full size it should be more capable in load.

I'd say you will find many that agree.

I also stated I believe a Rebel fitted with the VM would be probably the best 4x4 on offer in the US, even better than a Raptor.

@Big AL

Yes, you bashing when you said.

"A full size pickup for it's size would be good and viable if they could move 3 000lbs off road in the bed"

Which is you saying that these trucks aren't good since they can't haul 3,000 lbs off road. Okay, if you are going to trash talk then back up your bashing of our trucks by showing me a midsize 4WD four door pick up truck for over there that can haul 3,000 lbs. Don't talk trash unless you have something better. And don't try to spin it now. We all know how much you love to bash our US full size trucks, and even more so if it isn't a diesel or is a 2015+ Ford.

Again, bashing???

I'm stating a fact.

Bashing is putting down and demeaning.

Use a dictionary.

Again, trooooooolllling.


Cummins, awlone, and the other names you reside under,
My above comment will be the last bit of energy I will use in your ridiculous non-argument.

I just farted an poop leaked out.

A DualCab gets a maximum of 2,500lb Off Road. Only a Single Cab gets 3,000lb+ And they are not Off Road . DualCabs are the way to go Off Road here. The Rebel and Tundra would not be going Off Road,with Gas engines here.

@Big AL

Yes BAFO, you were bashing just like your Oz buddy Robert likes to do with our full size trucks just because you can't have them or afford them. You like to quote this fictional 3,00 lbs payload, but you neglect to mention that it is on a regular cab chassis cab truck that DOES NOT have a bed so the bed weight is not even subtracted from the payload yet. Then you compare them to our truck that are payloads with beds. You and your buddy continuouslyBoston false or cherry picked info to make it look like your small Utes are better.

Also, you were the one that responded to me so look in the mirror the next time you want to call people a tr-ll.

Oh wow, I had to pause in writing that last one before I posted and look who shows up. Your other oz buddy Robert.

Sorry Robert, but these truck along with other full size truck like the FX4 can off road in Australia regardless of what you think. There are plenty of videos I can show you of them going from the rocks of Moab, the snow of the Rockies, the sand dunes of Silver Lake, and to the mud holes of Alabama so you might want to get some proof to back up your claims that the full size trucks cannot go off road.

Robert Ryan,
You are correct most 4x4 dual cabs have around a 2 500lb payload.

Single cabs are two to three hundred pounds more and single cabs are over 3 300lbs.

I do think it is hard for some, especially our American brothers to grasp that their pickups are very large for what they achieve.

I'm not stating I don't like them, as they do make for a large SUV/Car alternative, with a V8.

But, for serious off roading, gasoline isn't the way to go.

It might do a 0-60 fast, but this doesn't give it better tractability, or even speed off road.

That's why I consider the Rebel with a diesel the best option for an American off road full size pickup. But, is it Hilux or Landcruiser tough?

False! therr you guys go again spreading false info. Only 2WD single cab and chassis(without a bed) with a base engine barely scratch over 3,300 lbs over there, but NOT a pick up varaint with a bed. Once the bed is factored into the cab abd chassis, the payload drops.

Also, it is very apparent that neither of you guys have off road experience because you CAN off road with gas engines and easily do so. It's called gear multiplI cation and I can show you thousandS if not millions of videos of gas engines going off road from 4 cylinder 22RE engines to penta star 3.6L V6 engines found in Jeep Wranglers. You don't need a diesel to go off road and just thinking you do shows you inexperience.

@Big Al from Oz
Cummins is ShinerBock elsewhere and Gas engines and full size Trucks can do no wrong. Goes under another well known name


I am who? Uhm, no. Although I like the beer, I am not this Shiner Bock guy you are accusing me of. I have never seen anyone here post as Shiner Bock so I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Also did you happen to look at my name? I do drive a Cummins diesel and soon to be Powerstroke once they come out so that kind of blows your "gas engines can do no wrong" theory. Although I am not a fan of small trucks. Maybe for an extra vehicle, but they are too cramped, too undepowered, and not enough capability for what I need. Sorry to burst you assumption bubble.


You're doing yeoman's work in taking down BAFO.

3.5 ecoboost makes more torque down low then any of the Australian midsize diesel by a large margin. To say a gas engine doesn't have it down low is a completely uneducated statement. None of the midsize Australian rigs could keep up with the tundra pro or ram rebel. And what to do with the horrible approach and departure and break over angles of the Australian midsize trucks????? Modify them for offroad like the Australians that post here have done to there rigs. Lift kits, tires, heavy duty springs. There even tuning there diesels over there cause there so anemic in stock form.

They are both slow and the torque delivery is not great. They raced several modified Raptors in the Dakar Rally and they were slugs, only one has finished and that was 41st. They really have no Global credibility. Need to get that first.

@robert Ryan

We need global credibility? No, we don't need jack. You guys maybe willing to bend over and take it in the bum to be accepted by the world, but we don't. We have our own races like the Baja 1000 and The King of the Hammers. We don't need to win Dakkar and quit frankly Dakkar is not even that important of a race over here so we don't give two Schmitt about it. We also don't care if the world accepts our trucks or not. The vast majority of us like our big powerful trucks over the small underpowered truck you got over there and if you don't like it then it sucks to be you. We are are not looking to gain your acceptance and are not willing to change what we like to get it. We have our own credibility and it is these small trucks that need it over here. Take one of your small trucks with a 2,500 lb paylaod and put it on our shores. The second it hits the ground here its paylaod drops to way less than 2,000 lbs because of our regulations here. The same goes for your diesels, which is why diesels over there will not pass regulations here, we our diesels will pass over there.

So go ahead and keep bending over for global acceptance. We will keep doing things our own way anyone like you who doesn't like it can go pound sand.

Also, if Raptors were "slugs" as you say, and your small diesel trucks considerably slower than a Raptor, than how slow does that make your trucks?

@Robert Ryan

I thought you said the Raptor finished 41st in the Dakar? It says here that in 2011 the Raptor finished first in the light truck class and that was with the old less powerful 5.4L engine instead of the 6.2L.


Hmmm, I guess that is another lie I caught you in. I think the only credibility you need worry about around here is your own.

@Cummins: I realize you're trying to make a point here, but it's lost in the fact that you obviously didn't read the whole series. While I do agree that neither truck has hill-hold specifically nor do they have full locking differentials, they both DO have a low-range transfer case AND either mechanical or electronic limited-slip, both of which you say they don't have. These two facts argue against your overall points.

Additionally, desert crawling isn't the only kind of off-road running; you don't have to go halfway around the world to experience a completely different off-road environment when at least three different environments can be found within the borders of the US itself, including hard-core mudding and forest trails. Trucks that do well in the desert may experience difficulties on these other trails and completely change the results of any desert-only testing.


This is what I said verbatim...

"The FX4 has a rear selectable locker and E-LSD in the front and rear which these trucks do not."

Which is 100% true. Neither of these two truck have lockers and E-LSD (pr some type of LSD) together. I know the Rebel only had a LSD because I have commented on the lack of a locker on the first article about it on PUTC. I also know that the Toyota has A-TRAC. However, I was talking about having a locker AND some form of LSD in the same truck which again is 100% true since neither of these two trucks have both.

Also, please don't lecture me about off roading. I can garentee you that I have a lot more experience off roading in different places like Moab, Ribicon, Silver Lake, Death Vally, Sedona, the Rockies, and many more places. I have been there and know what can go where. I can say it with experience and not from some article I have read so spare me the lecture.

That is Right 1st in the US Pickup Class 41st overall, a real slug. A stock Land cruiser came in 23rd

Inventing it as you go along as always , the truth. Sue Mead finished 41st overall, in the the US Pickup Class. Trucks in the Dakar are Class 8's
Raptor was such a slug, the Official Ford entry for the 2014 Rally was the South African built Ford Rangers.
Strangely easy to get all the information on this site.
When Sue Mead ran in 2011, there was concern she had actual,y finished

Sue Mead 1st in US Off Road production pickup class , 41st overall. A Dodge Ram her over competitor in the class finished 51st
Official Ford Rangers ran 3rd at one stage

@Robert Ryan

There you go again only telling part of the truth and trying to make out like your favorite "Global trucks" are better. The Raptor in the 2011 Dakar was a a completely stock 310 hp and 365 lb-ft of torque 5.4L just like you get off the factory floor in 2010 which was the only year that had the 5.4L. After that, the Raptor came with a 410 hp and 429 lb-ft of torque 6.2L. It also had a mostly stock suspension just like you can get off the showroom floor.

Secondly, the engines in those Rangers are NOT stock like the production class that the Raptor was in. They had highly modified suspensions and engines that you CANNOT get stock. They also had a 5.0L V8 engines in them that I know you cannot get stock on a global Ranger. Funny how you said earlier that gas engines aren't for off road use, but you turn right around to bring up the global Ranger race truck in the Dakar that used a V8 gaser engine. I guess you proved yourself wrong. The other vehicles that finished before the Raptor in the 201 Dakar were also highly modified compared to the mostly stock Raptor. Wow, you think so little of you global trucks that you have to compare a heavily modified one that you CANNOT buy of the show room floor to an almost stock US production truck. How about you leave one of those Rangers mostly stock and NO engine modifications and see what place you get.

Also, the class that the Raptor was in was NOT the "American class" trucks. That is not how Dakar classifies their trucks per their website. The go by weight, size, modifications, and fuel used in their "Car" classes.

So wjat have we learned here. You down a mostly stock truck and compare it to a heavily modified truck just to try to win. You also say that gasers areen't good off road, but turn around a tout a Ranger that needed a V8 5.0L gaser engine to compete in an off road race.

Wow, look at all these modifications on these 20q4 Dakar Ramger.....


Almost nothing is stock on that truck besides parts of the body shell. Hmm, I wonder why they didn't leave the 3.2L diesel in since Big Al and Robert are so adamant that you need a diesel for off road.

And you wonder why we say you cherry pick info just like your other Ausie brtetheren.

Oh waited I just red the link that I posted again. Not even the body on those Rangers is stock. I states that it is a composite body. So to recap, not only is the engine not stock, but it is a modified engine that is nor even offered in the global Ranger. So is the transmission, driveline, axles, suspension, body and just about everything else on that truck. It takes a special kind of stupid to compare an almost completely stock truck to a highly modified one tat has just about zero stock parts.

Sorry for all the grammar errors. The keyboard app on my phone sucks.

@ Cummins,
The Raptor was a slug and finished 41st, beaten even by some two wheel Cars
The Chinese Pickup that finished 6th outright had a modified 3 litre diesel, it beat the Rangers
Rangers were developed as outright contenders, the VW's that were outright winners had 2.5 Diesels. The " Minis" that won later Dakars, were reskinned BMW's with 3 Litre Diesels
Ford could not have possibly won any Dakar, with the slug the Raptor, they had to go too the Ranger

Yes the Raptor was in a Car Class and it's only competitor in that class, was a Dodge Ram, entered by Dutch competitors.

@Robert Ryan

Again, you are comparing a purposely built race vehicle to a almost stock vehicle. I guess this is the only way you can feel better about yourself just so you can say "global trucks are better", but these vehicles you keep bringing up are not even close to their production counterpart and only share their namesake. The fact that a almost completely stock truck can even finish off road races like this is a big deal. Let's see you and Big Al takes yalls almost completely stock global trucks to one of these races and see how you do. If you think that the 3.2L diesel in Al's BT50 (or any other stock diesel found in your global trucks) then you are sadly mistaken and it shows ignorance on the subject. If you think the 5.4L in the old Raptor was a slug, then those diesels you got in those trucks will feel slower than what my dead grandma moves. Go ahead, try it and see how far you get in your almost stock truck.

As I said earlier.......

It takes a special kind of stupid to compare an almost completely stock truck to a highly modified one that has just about zero stock parts.

You do tend to discuss and argue in areas of little knowledge.

Are you intentionally doing this? You also, seem to go under various names. Why?

So, this leads me to believe that you intentionally trowl.

Why? Are you sick, seriously. Autism.

If you have a limited knowledge base and you are interested in certain subjects, why not expand your mind?

Really, spend some time and look outside of the sphere of life you exist in.

When you are incorrect (often) you either make statements that infer;
a. The "US" isn't interested,

b. you aren't interested,

c. allude to, how can something not "American" be better or equal,

d. the argument or view of another is insignificant and really has no bearing on the outcome of the debate/argument,

e. use your other names as a backup to support yourself, (I find this tact odd),

f. denigrate a person as of little knowledge because they aren't American and have little understanding of the US, and

g. go away and use your other PUTC names to create a new line of dissention.

What is wrong with you man?

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