A Weighty Issue: Calculating Real-World Payload, Towing Capacities

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Many readers noted that the 2015 Ram 1500 Rebel in our 2015 4x4 Challenge had just 900 pounds of calculated — the word "calculated" is key here — payload capacity. As we noted in the story, we weighed both of our test pickup trucks (the other pickup was a 2015 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro) at a recently certified truck scale. The Rebel had a full tank of gas and an empty bed and cab, and weighed in at 5,900 pounds. We then subtracted 5,900 from 6,800 pounds to get our 900-pound payload figure. Our test Rebel's door label showed 947 pounds of payload capacity. (You can find a midsize or half-ton pickup's manufacturer payload number on a label inside the driver's side door.)

All this is interesting because we were told the short-bed Rebel crew cab (with a Hemi V-8 and a RamBox) had a towing capacity of around 10,000 pounds. That seemed odd to us, because it doesn't follow the Society of Automotive Engineers' J2807 standard requirement of 10 percent of towing capacity for the recommended tongue weight. Following that formula, the Rebel's 10,000 pounds of towing capacity would have put us 100 pounds over our 900-pound max payload capacity, and that's before adding a driver, passenger or cargo. We should also note that SAE J2807 criteria recommends, before adding tongue weight, adding 300 pounds for passengers as well as 25 to 65 pounds for the receiver and trailer hitch or weight-distributing hitch.

Discarding a 9,000- or 10,000-pound trailer capacity for the Rebel and backing into what the real towing capacity should be based on the SAE requirements, here's what we get: Using 900 pounds of calculated payload capacity and subtracting 300 pounds for passengers leaves us with 600 pounds or so of payload. That means a maximum towing capacity of 6,000 pounds if we use the SAE-recommended 10 percent tongue weight number. But that assumes we can't or won't add any cargo to the bed or carry any passengers in the backseat. If we add a few passengers and cargo, we're down to 300 pounds or less of payload capacity. Does that mean real-world towing capacity — based on the SAE J2807 recommendations — of around 3,000 pounds for a full-size half-ton pickup truck with a V-8?

What does all this mean for pickup owners? It means you need to pay careful attention to your particular truck's capacities. We highly recommend, no matter which manufacturer makes your pickup truck, taking your pickup to your local truck stop or department of motor vehicles and getting the actual weight of your truck. Remember to take all the junk out of the bed and cab. Subtract that number weight from the GVWR posted on the door label. If your truck does not have a door label with that information, it may be in the glove box or the owner's manual. Calculating your truck's real-world payload capacity will help you learn exactly how much weight your truck can carry. That number needs to include tongue weight if you tow. Don't be one of those people who think they can hook up a trailer to their bumper or fifth-wheel and pull it safely.

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We also should note that the EPA allows manufacturers to list a maximum tow rating based on only a few simple criteria such as engine size, cab configuration and presumed weight. That's why a Ram 1500 Rebel crew-cab Hemi can get away with listing a towing capability of 10,000 pounds even though it's much heavier than just about any other four-door V-8 pickup Ram sells.

To be specific, our 4x4 Ram Rebel came with the four-corner air suspension (very heavy), the RamBox (also heavy), a spray-in bedliner (surprisingly heavy), much bigger wheels and tires (heavy), and lots of other optional equipment, all of which is not on a stripped 4x2 crew-cab Ram Express Hemi, which actually does and should have a max tow rating closer to 10,000 pounds.

With all that said, we thought it might be interesting to look at each of the three top-selling half-ton pickups — the Chevrolet Silverado 1500, Ford F-150 and Ram 1500 — to see what kind of GVWR and maximum towing capacity range they offer for 2016 models in their different cab configurations: regular cab, extended cab and crew cab. The results are interesting.

 

Gvwr chart

 

Again, what does all this mean? At the very least, it points to the need for truckmakers to more clearly communicate to their customers the appropriate weights they can expect their truck to safely carry and tow. We don't want anyone to find themselves in the position of finding out the new pickup they just bought can safely carry only half the weight they thought it could or only tow a boat half the size of the one in their driveway.

It's worth noting that Ford seems to have the widest GVW ranges of any half-ton maker, which seems to translate into a higher max tow rating range. Ram seems to have the narrowest GVW range (certainly for their extended and crew cabs), and some of the smallest max tow ratings. Of course, the range differences in both GVW and tow capacity have a great deal to do with what engine, axle gears, and driveline configurations are selected. 

What worries us is that even if this information is much less complicated than it seems here, we know you're not going to get a straight explanation from a sales person who might not have any idea what the difference is between a gross vehicle weight rating and a gross combined weight rating. To be safe, pickup owners need to arm themselves with the right information about their pickup. In the meantime, you can count on us to keep pushing truckmakers to do a better job.

Cars.com images by Evan Sears

 

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Comments

Lots of it open to interpretation. Personally I got my truck weighed with me and a passenger full tank of fuel and all the junk I normally have bolted to/in it to get a real world figure for max pay load.

They really have taken this to the NASA level where the weight of a tank of fuel is the difference between rating/bragging/marketing prowess.

I still think the Ram Rebel's payload is a joke for a toy that cant compete with the Raptor.

It's a truck. I just load up and go, see ya!

kind of reminds me of what ram does in the hd segment on there tow ratings.... Claim the best in class tow rating with a picture of a fully loaded 1 ton 4x4 dually in the ad.... But really the only way you get best in class towing in a ram is a 2wd regular cab base dually. While ford best in class hd rating is on a 4x4 fully loaded dually.

Scott, you forgot one thing, the Ford is a long 4 door also. Provided a much more stable platform when towing. Plus the tiny little Ram 3500 is rated for 10 lbs more than the Ford.

I'm not sure how Ram can advertise j2807 on all trucks but I bet it only pertains to a select few. I've watched comparo videos on the Ford 2.7 vs Ram 3.0L diesel and the 2.7 kills the Ram up hills towing.

"...a spray-in bedliner (surprisingly heavy)...."

Can you give us the actual amount of weight the bedliner added? Surely it would be less than 100 lbs wouldn't it? It was a short bed, how much material could it have needed?

Get into an accident overloaded and someone parishes in the incident. If your overweight, expect life to be difficult.

Your not going to see much out of FCA due to there financial situation. Next to vw they are prolly the only auto company losing money in the third quarter. They will prolly be getting another bailout by decades end.

PUTC, dont forget a lot of states say legally you cant be over on GVW, GCVW or Trailer weight, so there is more to it then just your payload calcs. You should also mention, that like most people do, adding airbags or another leaf spring, actually degrades your capacity, NOT improves it(becasue it adds weight which now needs to be subtracted out). Its also good to note, going by the door sticker doesnt mean anything, that sticker is from when the truck left the line, by the time it gets to the dealer it could have many dealer added upgrades which is why you should always weigh it and do the Math to be sure.

I'll say it again- Ford, and to some extent GM, is the only 1/2 ton truck maker (currently) to have sufficient GVW/Payload options to realistically hit those 5ton tow capacity numbers in the real world.
The Titan XD touts a factory gooseneck hitch, but so far they've only published payload "over 2000#. That isn't much when you're talking about pin weight with a 6 ton trailer.
Ram and Toyota need to step up their payload/GVW options if they want to continue to publish meaningful tow capacities.

This is what myself and a few other bloggers have been saying all along:

CARGO RATINGS HAVE A BEARING UPON TOW RATINGS!

At one time the weight of the truck and occupants wasn't a big deal since crewcab trucks were only available in HD's. We now have 1/2 ton crewcab trucks as the dominant seller. You need at least an 1800lb cargo rating to be able to carry a family of 4 and odds and ends to have just 1/2 a ton of cargo.

How come when 3 years ago consumer reports said a Jetta can haul more than a Ram everyone got their panties in a knot here? Its true.

I think Ram is the only one who counts 60 lbs. of air in each tire as part of their payload.

While recently testing a 2015 Ford F-150, I looked through its manual and found this on page 251: "Note: For high altitude operation, reduce the gross combined weight by 2% per 1000 ft. (305 m) starting at the 1000 ft. (305 m) elevation point."

Interestingly, we could not remember reading or hearing about anything like this from any of the other manufacturers before. Clearly, this means that the truck's carrying capacity (found in the gross vehicle weight rating) and maximum towing capacity (found in the gross combined weight rating) would be negatively impacted at higher elevations in significant ways. In fact, this made us wonder why only Ford would offer such advice. Was it responding to some kind of pending litigation or was this just good customer safety awareness?

Now instead of just giving points to a paper tiger like in the past on this site for Max numbers, why don't they test these trucks at their Max towing, also show us the price difference.

kind of reminds me of what ram does in the hd segment on there tow ratings.... Claim the best in class tow rating with a picture of a fully loaded 1 ton 4x4 dually in the ad.... But really the only way you get best in class towing in a ram is a 2wd regular cab base dually. While ford best in class hd rating is on a 4x4 fully loaded dually.


Posted by: Scott | Oct 29, 2015 11:20:04 AM

Ya never mind Ford using an F 450 vs Rams 3500.

If anyone's curious about that hitch in the bottom picture, it's from weigh-safe.com I have one and they're GREAT.

@Mark Williams
Correct as regarding real world towing capacity.That is why US Pickups lose several thousand pounds in ratings here as the the tounge or hitch rating is critical.
A Ford F-250 6.7 Diesel gets rated at 9,900lbs bumper tow but rate a lot more for a 5th wheel

@Robert Ryan

Good point I just looked at mine(2011 F250 6.7l) I have a class VI, and it says 12,500lb trailer(with weight distribution), without WD its 8,500lbs, so dont forget to see what the hitch rating is besides your own truck, I remember seeing Chevy's(2500's) when I was shopping that had class III's on them....

This is why I bought my F150 with a 2100lb payload rating. I can't imagine having a crew cab and a 900lb payload rating. That becomes an "either or" vehicle. You can either have the cab full of passengers, the bed full of cargo, or a trailer on the hitch. But only one of those.

That's right HemroidV8. I'd be afraid to haul that much with that tiny regular cab 3500. Might use it to move something from one barn to the other but that's as far as I would take it.

Funny to see Hemi(roid)V8 go into damage control mode. He's an expert at it being a Ram fanboz.

Y'all mocked RAM when they came out with this latest version of these trucks and pointed to it's puny payload and towing. Then it turned out even before J2807 they were already compliant. Their ratings basically stayed the same while Ford and GM dropped. And I remember suggesting that RAM might already be compliant.

In this case, I suppose that RAM has already factored in the mass of a full load of passengers and deducted accordingly. I am NOT a RAM engineer. Nor do I work for FCA.

Suffice it to say BMW had a 3 series with low advertised horsepower, in comparison to Mercedes and Cadillac. Then, in a comparo, neither the Merc nor the Caddy were able to demonstrably pull away from the BMW, despite having a theoretical near 80 horse advantage. And a dyno test showed them all to be very close to each other on horsepower.

Turns out BMW rated their horsepower based on the highest altitude and worst fuel and any other condition that could sap horsepower. That way you knew even in the worst case scenario you would have X horsepower. And didn't go out there and brag about it.

I liken FCAs stance in this to be similar. Not exactly playing possum.


Ya never mind Ford using an F 450 vs Rams 3500.


Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 2:13:18 PM
What makes the f450 different then the f350 besides the badge on the fender and tailgate?

Ya never mind Ford using an F 450 vs Rams 3500.


Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 2:13:18 PM

Clearly shows how stupid you are on trucks. Maybe you should research what truck it is before you look like a greater tool. The F450 Superduty is not a F450 chassis cab. The F450 Superduty is a class 3 truck the same as the Ram 3500. It is governed by the 14000 GVW rating. The F450 is a name plate and not the trucks rating. What a tool. Oh and J2807 rated before you try and play that card.

JUST BUY A TUNDRA!!!!!!!!!!

If you do you will know FOR CERTAIN that the towing capacity you see EVERYWHERE is correct no matter what the elevation.

SO if you have a crew max platinum that has a 1525lb. payload capacity with a towing capacity of 9800lbs. you can have a couple passengers and full tank of fuel etc and hookup and drive through Eisenhower tunnel at 11,300ft. above sea level and STILL be ok.

STOP THE NONSENSE Ford, GM, and Ram
Just publish the numbers and stop acting like kids about it. I'm happy Toyota doesn't play that game. If you cant read between the lines and you buy a vehicle that cant handle it but you thought it could you can only blame yourself.


While recently testing a 2015 Ford F-150, I looked through its manual and found this on page 251: "Note: For high altitude operation, reduce the gross combined weight by 2% per 1000 ft. (305 m) starting at the 1000 ft. (305 m) elevation point."

Interestingly, we could not remember reading or hearing about anything like this from any of the other manufacturers before. Clearly, this means that the truck's carrying capacity (found in the gross vehicle weight rating) and maximum towing capacity (found in the gross combined weight rating) would be negatively impacted at higher elevations in significant ways. In fact, this made us wonder why only Ford would offer such advice. Was it responding to some kind of pending litigation or was this just good customer safety awareness?

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 1:53:54 PM

Interesting that you posted this Hemroid X 8. Being the F150 is J2807 certified for its tow and pay load ratings at altitude, this does indicate at sea level the F150 is capable of even more work. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I do think tow rating should be made simpler in the US with new and better regulations and controls in place.

I do know here regardless of the brand, engineering a midsizer tow limit is capped to 3500kg a US full size, whether 1/2 ton or HD is capped to 4500kg. That is towng off of a towbar.

So take my BT50 with a GVM of 6000kg and put 3500kg behind it leaves me with around 2500kg for my vehicle and load. The vehicle weighs around 2100kg with fuel.

So I have an actual load on the pickup of 400kg or 880lbs with a maxed out trailer behind me.

As Robert Ryan pointed out a fifth wheeler is different, as the vehicles GVM is used. So, my BT50 can have a combined total of 6000kg. This would leave me with a fifth wheeler of around 4000kg or 8 800lbs.

I a firm believer that US pickups should have a tow limit by Class, ie, 1/2 Ton - 10 000lbs, Class 2 - 15 000lbs, etc.

Let the regulators work out the exact tow loads.

This will remove the spin and propaganda from the "Best in Class" syndrome that afflicts many of the US pickup manufacturers.

the scrutineer - please post where it states that Ram ratings include passengers and fuel?

HemiV8
FCA has done a sterling job attracting the potential pickup consumer to Ram.

As we all know the average pickup person is a middle class person who just wants a large vehicle.

Ram has produced a more affordable SUV in the Ram for 75% of pickup users. They just want to tote the kids sometimes, tow a boat or small utility trailer and park at Lowes/Home Depot and look the part in the parking lot when they go in and buy a bag of fertiliser and thirty, two inch nails.

FCA knows better than some who comment on this site that the average person will most likely not even tow with their half ton pickup.

So, these ratings are really only pertinent to 5% who actually will tow any significant load.

This article is only important to the 5% or other's who try and demonstrate that brand "F" is better than brand "R".

You know the ones.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT PAYLOAD.

THE CLASS LEADING 2018 POWER WAGON WITH THE MAJOR LEAGUE UPDATE WILL BE MY NEXT TRUCK.

PISMO BEACH HERE I COME.

GUTS

GLORY

BEST IN CLASS

R/AM!

@BAFO


"So take my BT50 with a GVM of 6000kg and put 3500kg behind it leaves me with around 2500kg for my vehicle and load. The vehicle weighs around 2100kg with fuel."

False, your BT50 DOES NOT have a 6,000kg GVM. It has a 3,200 kg GVM.


Page 31 - https://www.mazda.com.au/assets/cars/bt50/bt50-brochure/bt50-brochure.pdf


This means if your truck weighs 2,100kg, then you have 1,100kg of payload.


"So I have an actual load on the pickup of 400kg or 880lbs with a maxed out trailer behind me."


Your truck does have a 3,500kg (7716 lbs) tow rating, but it also has a max tow bar rating of 350 kg (771 lbs) so you would be overloading your towbar with 400 kg.


"I a firm believer that US pickups should have a tow limit by Class, ie, 1/2 Ton - 10 000lbs, Class 2 - 15 000lbs, etc. Let the regulators work out the exact tow loads."


Well, you don't live here so you don't get a sayso in the matter now do you. Nor do I think anyones else cares what you , a foreigner, thinks as well. ALthough, funny that you don't put Australia in that gripe since they don't have tow classes either. their vehicle classes go by GVM just like the US does. Why gripe on the the US does things when Australia does them the same way? Oh, wait......that's right. Another way for you to chastise the US.

You may like bureaucrats telling you what to do or regulating your lives, but we don't. Well, at least the conservative people don't. Our tow rating are based off of actually testing the weight that the truck can tow going by SAE standards and now what some guy in an some government office thinks it should be. I would much rather have a tow rating based on actual testing of each truck than no testing at all.

I have a 2015 Denali 1500 4x4 6.2/8 speed and it's rated at a bit under 1500lbs as per the door label. This includes the liner and boards from the factory. I added a Leer 550 lid. I use the truck in the patch and haul 500lbs +/- in the box regularly for work. Sometimes I'll add a 250lb pump or motor to the mix.

I had a Ram 2500 doing the same thing but a Ram 1500 crew equivelant to the Denali 1500 has a useless rating. Not that the Denali 1500 is a heavy hauler but it's in the realm of what a typical 1500 is meant for and I can comfortably use it even accessorized.

I have no issue with the Ram but a 1500 is useless.

As far as having a stock 1500, it does the same thing the lifted 3500's are doing on site just alot less punishing to drive lol

That's right HemroidV8. I'd be afraid to haul that much with that tiny regular cab 3500. Might use it to move something from one barn to the other but that's as far as I would take it.


Posted by: Truck Crazy | Oct 29, 2015 2:43:32 PM

Ya, trust that C channel garbage ford. Not the class leading j2807 Ram. Stay thirsty my friend. lol

Remember Ford really is number one, .............at recalls!!!

Carl, aka DiM,
WFT??????

Go back and do some 2nd grade arithmetic!

1. The load on a tow bar is calculated at 10% of the total weight of trailer and load.

2. Again as I've often told you, use Google. Google is your friend. My vehicle's GCM is 6 tonnes. My vehicle's GVM is 3.5 tonnes.

3. You don't add use your GVM and GCM to get your trailer load.

4. So, if my GCM is 6 tonnes and I put 3.5 tonnes behind it, the formula looks like this;

x = GCM

y = trailer

The formula -------------- x - y = ?

So, now we have 6t - 3.5t = 2.5t

Again now my vehicle weights 2.1 tonnes.

So we now the payload on the vehicle is 2.5t - 2.1t = ?

0.4t or roughly 400kg x 2.2 = 880lbs.

Did you know that 1 + 1 = 2, ?

Hmmmm...........Denverlike.

As smart as a dog turd, aren't we.

@BAFO

You stated....

""So take my BT50 with a GVM of 6000kg and put 3500kg behind it leaves me with around 2500kg for my vehicle and load. The vehicle weighs around 2100kg with fuel.""

Your GVM of your BT-50 is NOT 6,000 kg. The internet is your friend, but just in case you can't Google then let me link the info AGAIN!

" My vehicle's GVM is 3.5 tonnes."

False, it is 3.2 tonnes or 3,200 kg.


Page 31 clearly states that your GVM is 3,200 kg and NOT 6,000 kg like you stated earlier or 3.5 tonnes like you stated above. - https://www.mazda.com.au/assets/cars/bt50/bt50-brochure/bt50-brochure.pdf

It also clearly states that your max tow bar limit is 350 kg so your 400 kg that you stated earlier would put you over your trucks rating.

Do you have trouble reading or comprehending the ratings that Mazda gave your truck?


Ya, trust that C channel garbage ford. Not the class leading j2807 Ram. Stay thirsty my friend. lol

Remember Ford really is number one, .............at recalls!!!

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 7:02:05 PM

I'm curious Hemroid X 8 in what world is a C frame garbage. Even your precious Ram crap uses a C frame. 50KSI frame ratings is common in medium duty trucks. On day you will actually learn about trucks there Rambot. It is pretty obvious the safer towing J2807 rated F450 that is a long wheel base 4 door truck that is a 4x4 would handle a large load much better than a single cab 4x2 2 seat that no one can use Ram. It is quite sad that Ram has to strip down their smallest dually truck to compete with Ford and beat it by 10lbs. HAHAHAHAHA. To bad that engine transmission combo cost $12K vs Ford and GM have the same engine ratings for all their diesel trucks. Ram owners have to pay thousands for a different tune. HAHAHA

Ram =KING OF BEASTS!!!

This just goes to show, again, that you can't believe a dang thing Fiat says.

Just like the Rebel v. Tundra test--the Fiat was RATED for more HP, RATED for more torque, more gears, etc. But out in the real world where the rubber hits the, er, dirt, the Tundra BIATCH SLAPPED the Fiat in dirt drags when the engines are let off the electronic chains!

@Dav, 4.30 gear vs 3.92 Hmmmmm I wonder whats best for 0 to 60? The only thing that Toyota won't pass is the gas station.

LMAO, Get a clue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3CAnH7WIM

Ram dishonesty with there tow ratings leads to the rating on the rebel most likely being derived from a stripped down no option rebel in a 4x2 configuration that they apply to all the rebels they produce. The mathematical figures for a 6000 lb tow rating on a fully loaded 4x4 rebel. Ram needs aluminum truck badly to keep pace as the industry is leaving fiat behind.


@Dav, 4.30 gear vs 3.92 Hmmmmm I wonder whats best for 0 to 60? The only thing that Toyota won't pass is the gas station.

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 7:58:36 PM

Limpy V8, your ignorance is endless. Rear end gearing is only part of the story. Your forgetting the ratios in the transmission and torque converter lock up strategy. Holy cow I expected a little more comprehension from a Rambot but you are truly letting Fiat down.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/trucks/2015_ram_1500_rebel_4x4_hemi_vs_toyota_tundra_trd_pro_comparison/specs.html

Ram, more HP, more torque, more transmission gears, final drive RPMs are within 50 rpm of each other and the ram still cant outperform the old Toyota. HAHAHAHAHA


LMAO, Get a clue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3CAnH7WIM

Posted by: HEMI V8 | Oct 29, 2015 8:00:46 PM

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO why didn't they show their own chassis cab truck on that test. You know the truck with higher rated payload and C channel frame. Show me a jobsite where the truck is even supported on 2 wheels anyways. Just another pathetic attempt by that failure of a company to try and market their failure prone product.

@ Hemiv8

"4.30 gear vs 3.92 Hmmmmm I wonder whats best for 0 to 60? The only thing that Toyota won't pass is the gas station."


Hmmmmmmmm, well what SHOULD be better at 0-60 would be the pickup that has a steeper 1st gear of 4.71 (Fiat) vs the 3.33 (Tundra) when multiplied to get the effective gear ratio of ~18.46 to ~14.3--yet it was SLOWER. So is it cause the hemi is an overrated POS or is it cause the suspension is a POS?

Oh, and WOW the Fiat for all the "hi tech" suspension, tranny, etc, got a WHOOPTY DOO 10% better MPG (despite the Tundra running real E rated tires) on the highway and a WHOPPING 3% better when using a pickup like a pickup--all easily made up for by the fact that the hemi needs MORE EXPENSIVE FUEL to a make any power!

@Nitro, Good point.

Always weight your rig when new. The weight leaving the factory and delivered to customer can vary. Also, after a few years, you would be surprised at the weight increase due to an accumulation of dirt and debris in the chassis. This may be negligible, it may not.

Your mileage may vary, be safe, stay within your limits.
Happy Truckin!

Ram needs aluminum truck badly to keep pace as the industry is leaving fiat behind.


Posted by: Scott | Oct 29, 2015 8:07:58 PM

Why doesn't Ram beat Ford them at their own game and make it from tin foil.

I can see the Ford clan is on a Rampage. ;-(

So is it cause the hemi is an overrated POS or is it cause the suspension is a POS?

Posted by: Dav | Oct 29, 2015 8:36:13 PM

The Toyota is only got half the frame of the RAM. C-Channel vs Fully boxed.

I have always owned Chevy trucks, for most of my life, I have owned a Dakota once, and was glad I did, as it was able to tow and haul everything I needed, and was surprised to find out just what it could haul and tow, an easy 7K and 1.5 K, without any problems, it was a reg cab 4x4 with the 5,900 gvw package, and that truck only weighed in at 4,300 with me it it! Now with my latest Chevy, ext cab 2011, Z-71, I am able to tow my Airstream at 7.5K, trailer loaded, with a Sportster in the bed and the wife and I with no problem, stock. I am also able to haul an easy 1,600 of anything I need without and problem. Then I just flew to Detroit for a trip to the Upper Michigan area, and rented a new Ram 1500 Double Quad Cab 4x4 3.6/8spd. Which I was pleased with, until I tried to take the wife and 3 other friends and all the gear, and a small boat, 5K! when empty the truck was surprisingly quick, and comfy, it also averaged 20mpg with just the two of us on the trip, that was until I loaded it up! and man, this truck was like trying to haul 5lbs of $hit, in a 4lbs bag! I would not recommend anyone buying a Ram 1/2 ton if they ever plan on hauling anything more than it says on the door! You either haul people, or toys, but NOT both! I am glad I found this out before buying one! When the time comes to get a new 1/2t truck, I will have to stay with the Chevy, as I have tried a Ford, and will not go that way either!



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