Ohio Jeep Plant to Make Next Ram Mid-Size Pickup

2010-Dodge-Dakota-Truck-Image-01-1024 copy II

Ram will be making a mid-size pickup truck out of the same plant that will be making the new Jeep pickup, which means it will share parts and powertrain options with the Jeep Scrambler.

According to Automotive News, some suppliers of the new Jeep pickup are saying they'll also be supplying parts for a Ram mid-size pickup truck aimed at the growing segment that is led by the Toyota Tacoma and Chevrolet Colorado. Ford debuted the new Ranger at the 2018 North American International Auto Show in Detroit and will likely have the pickup ready for sale by the end of the year.

The Jeep Scrambler will share many of the same parts and interior pieces with the Jeep Wrangler, and now it sounds like parent company Fiat Chrysler Automobiles will be looking to take another bite of the apple with a different version of the body-on-frame mid-size player. Ram last offered a mid-size pickup for the 2011 model year, called the Dakota, but could bring the lethargic Toledo Assembly Complex back to full capacity once retooling is complete for the two pickups.

To date, we've seen several types of Jeep Scrambler spy photographs (here are the latest), but it's possible some of those heavily camouflaged prototypes also could have been Ram pickups. We'll know more before the end of the year; we're guessing something will happen before the Specialty Equipment Market Association Show in October or the Los Angeles Auto Show in November.

Manufacturer images

 

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Comments

Repeated assertion: A proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction

2022 Mid Size sales:
1. Ford Ranger
2. Toyota Tacoma
3. Ram Dakota
4. Chevy Colorado
5. Nissan Frontier
6. GMC Canyon
7. Honda Ridgeline
8. VW ?

Dodge/RAM lead the way in being the first mid size pickup. With re entry to the segment RAM will lead again. Fairly easy to out do the GM twins, Tacoma has very loyal following despite its shortcomings, Nissan Navaro- yawn, the toughest to challange will be the Ranger.

Dodge/RAM lead the way in being the first mid size pickup. With re entry to the segment RAM will lead again... the toughest to challange will be the Ranger.
Posted by: Ramtastic | Sep 20, 2018

@Ramtastic

I'm ready to heartily agree with you BUT the new truck will need to be a clean-sheet design, not a warmed-over Jeep or a 3rd-world Fiat all lipsticked-up for the North American market.

If RAM does it right, they can go home with all the marbles!

According to UAW leaders, there's no capacity to build this in Toledo. http://www.wtol.com/story/39125165/local-leaders-speak-out-on-potential-of-new-ram-truck-being-built-in-toledo

@hmmmm

Very interesting story! The report you shared says the Toledo assembly plant would constrain either the RAM midsize, or constrain the Wrangler that is already in production there.

It also shares the UAW Local's concern that Fiat might produce the truck in Mexico, which in the current political environment is hard to imagine.

Thinking back to the approach taken by GM a few years ago, the simply shifted shop-floor capacity at Wentzville from GM vans to the Colorado/Canyon. Did NOT build a new plant.

For Fiat to consider building new capacity in Toledo (or elsewhere for that matter) adds a ton of risk to the whole project.

Sounds like lots of choices in the near future for midsize buyers, probably a lot of which are first-time truck buyers and people becoming financially stable after years of economic malaise.

That is one of the reasons that a Ram midsize truck could work if they are making a Jeep pickup as well FCA could adjust the production to make more of what truck is selling the most. Ford will have a plant producing the Ranger and Bronco and Honda has a plant producing the Pilot and Ridgeline. Not as big a risk to share plant capacity with another product and can vary production based on which model is selling the most. A midsize pickup will sell better than the future electric Chrysler van that will be replacing the Chrysler 300. Ram might want to do what Dodge did on the Dakota and offer a bed as wide as the full size and add an optional V-8.

On the other hand if production is constrained in Toledo this story might be to gauge an interest in a Ram midsize truck. We don't know absolutely that Ram has committed itself to this truck and if so when is the date. It took years for Ford to commit to a US Ranger.

after years of economic malaise...Posted by: BD | Sep 20, 2018

@BD

Americans are presently in the NINTH year of the current bull market. Which "economic malaise" are you referring to sir?

and add an optional V-8. ...Posted by: Jeff S | Sep 20, 2018

Already covered this yesterday Jeff. Whatever engine is chosen needs to fit the available space under the hood. The Hemi is surely wider than the 4.7 V8 in the previous Dakota.

Regarding shop floor capacity in Toledo (and elsewhere) this was also covered yesterday and you chose instead to get hung up on a perception you had that I was contradicting myself. (assuming that was the REAL Jeff of course)

Now, your statement concurs with the one you took exception to yesterday.

C'mon, Man!

@Angelo -- i used to own one of those V8 Dakotas. I had a '92 with the 230hp version of the 5.2L (318c.i.). They dialed the HP down to 220 the following year.

It was a nice truck for the time period. It didn't handle well, but better than most trucks of the time. I had the 2wd, and it was difficult to keep from spinning the tires when taking off from a complete stop. A modern V6 engine, or even a turbo four, can easily exceed the power output of the old 318, and should deliver similar driving experience, given the much greater weight of modern midsize trucks (my '92 weighed 3700lbs).

With today's drive-by-wire, and computer-contrilled throttle/brake modulation to control wheelspin, FCA could package a driveable V8 into a modern mid-size truck. I think a V8 would only be for bragging rights, though, as the smaller engines could provide thoroughly adequate power while using less fuel. The V8 may have advantages in towing and auditory entertainment, but those are about the only advantages i can see for a V8 in a mid-size truck package.

Btw, i could change all eight spark plugs in that old Dakota in less than eleven minutes. It didn't seem to be 'crammed' into the engine bay at all.

The new Ranger and new Frontier when they arrive will create market saturation. Honestly if the Frontier was really in the game or Ranger was already here saturation would have occurred already.

The Scrambler will just be.

If Hyundai, VW and Fiat fields a 2nd pretend truck under Ram the only one missing from this party is Mazda. They could buy Rangers again...

Ranger will certainly make it into the top 3 for sales very quickly and will probably move higher over time. It has a history in NA and several other countries of eventually taking the top pretend truck sales spot.

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@clint

Price matters a lot to mid size buyers.

Full size buyers have a lot of price points to chose from but midsizers are getting expensive really fast.

Nobody would have dreamed of $40,000 Rangers and Colorados 10 years ago. Today, $35k is almost an entry price if you don't want vinyl seats and base engine & trim packages.

I say this because Ford can still blow it. If they don't bring enough pricing options to the showroom it could be over in a hurry.

Economy used to be a big deal for drivers of compact trucks.

@papajim--I don't really care what Ram does. FCA for several years has been floating around the idea of a pickup and now has decided to make one. Maybe Ram will make a midsize truck and then maybe not. This article did not specifically give a date as to when this midsize truck would be available. One of the advantages of the Dakota is it had a wider bed than its competitors and it was the first real midsize pickup and it had an optional V-8. I did not say that a new midsize Ram would have a V-8, I said that would be a selling point to many and so would a wider bed. I believe you could lay a sheet of plywood flat in the bed of the previous Dakota. Maybe that is not a big deal to you but it would be to me to have a smaller truck with a wider bed. I am not as interested in a V-8 but if one were available who says it would necessarily be a Hemi--that is only your assumption. I would think a Penstar V-6 would be a good optional engine.

As for your contradiction it did at first appear that you said the dealers would want a midsize truck and then say they didn't want another product to sell. I don't see a problem with making a midsize Ram if it shares a platform with the new Jeep pickup and an assembly plant. I would think if both sold well enough and the Toledo plant was a full capacity they could either expand the plant or use another existing plant. For FCA that would be a good problem to have that the demand for your product is greater than plant capacity.

I am not a big fan of FCA or their products so I would be unlikely to ever buy a midsize Ram. Not to say their products are bad but having owned a Chrysler product before they are not my top choice. I would buy a GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, or Hyundai before I would buy an FCA product. I do like the Challenger better than the Camaro and Mustang but I just am not a Mo par fan. My opinion would be not to put a V-8 in a midsize truck since most of today's V-6s and I-4s especially turbocharged out perform the V-8s of the past. I do think the wider bed would be a huge competitive advantage over its competitors.

@papajim--Since you are on the topic of price would you have believed that a full size half ton pickup would ever be 60k? If you are going to compare a well optioned midsize pickup at 40k then for a fair comparison you need to compare an equally equipped full size pickup. 40k is not as bad for a fully optioned crew cab 4 wheel drive truck than many equivalently equipped cars, suvs, and crossovers. The comparison is much more accurate comparing apples to apples than apples to oranges.

I am not as interested in a V-8 but if one were available who says it would necessarily be a Hemi--that is only your assumption.

@Jeff

How do you discuss V8 engines and FCA in the same sentence without the Hemi.

They don't have another one, do they? Surely you're not suggesting that FCA would develop a smaller V8 solely to suit the dimensions of the Dakota, and its siblings.

Believe it or not I actually think about this stuff before writing it.

@Jeff

regarding prices:

Again, I think about this stuff before I say it.

The big 3 offer half ton trucks in the work-truck trim packages and they're priced about the same as many compact/midsize pickups.

The MSRP for a Ford XL is probably around $28K and that means with incentives they can be had in the mid twenties or even less.

As for your contradiction it did at first appear that you said the dealers would want a midsize truck and then say they didn't want another product to sell.
Posted by: Jeff s | Sep 20, 2018

I've already addressed this. You assume, evidently, that ALL dealers speak with one voice. Believe me, they don't.

Sometimes the same family owned dealership has multiple viewpoints within a single business. FCA's leadership wants to leave no stone unturned in delivering customer (and dealer) satisfaction.

Again I think you need to compare a Colorado Base or WT model to the Silverado WT model. People that are going to buy a crew cab Colorado with 4 wheel drive are not going to buy a Silverado in a work trim which is an apples to oranges comparison. By the way a Colorado Base can be had for as little as 18k new if you do a search on cars.com--they usually go quickly at below 20k. The Colorado at 40k is usually the top of the line model crew cab with 4 wheel drive, tow package, and a few other options like heated leather seats.

@Jeff

re: price

At ANY Chevy dealership there will be dozens of Silverado's in almost every trim to choose from---simply because the dealer profit on half ton trucks is really solid.

Less true with midsizers, but that may change in the future. You'll find dozens of W/T Silverado's (black/white/silver) in regular cab and extended cab configurations. Not so much with midsizers.

GM dealers have determined that they will not lose sales to their competitors over not having inventory available.

Good luck finding a Colorado under 20k, or even 25...

"Very interesting story! The report you shared says the Toledo assembly plant would constrain either the RAM midsize, or constrain the Wrangler that is already in production there. It also shares the UAW Local's concern that Fiat might produce the truck in Mexico, which in the current political environment is hard to imagine. Thinking back to the approach taken by GM a few years ago, the simply shifted shop-floor capacity at Wentzville from GM vans to the Colorado/Canyon. Did NOT build a new plant. For Fiat to consider building new capacity in Toledo (or elsewhere for that matter) adds a ton of risk to the whole project." ---- Posted by: papajim

First off, I find portions of that story hard to believe. Something like two years ago (or maybe a little more) we were told that the Cherokee was taken out of one of the two Toledo plants, specifically to prep for the JL Wrangler. The existing Wrangler plant was to continue building JKs for a limited time, then shift over to the JT pickup. This would ultimately mean that the old Wrangler plant has MORE than enough capacity to build both the JT and a new mid-sized RAM, completely contradicting the UAW's claims.

And yes, FCA is stating the new truck would be built in Toledo, presumably in the JT plant. Even if some overflow production from the JL is being built in the JT plant, the JL plus JT should not carry that plant to capacity, since most of the JLs are built in the old Cherokee plant. So again, there seems a logical error in somebody's reporting and to be quite honest it sounds like it's whomever reported the UAW claim.

Pentastar 3.6 with a NVG370 6-speed manual and Dodge will blow the new Ranger out of the water. Its a no brainer really, not everyone wants a turbo I4 or automatic in their midsize (are you listening FORD??? Of course not...).

Now, with this "Dakota" vs the JT pickup, there may be a bit of product overlap, but its not like there isn't any currently if you combine all of FCAs products. Chrysler 200 vs Dodge dart, Pacifica vs grand caravan, 300 vs charger, etc. But, who buys Chrysler anything anyways? Nobody through our dealership at least, just jeeps and rams...

who buys Chrysler anything anyways? Nobody through our dealership at least, just jeeps and rams...
Posted by: FormerFordFanboyToTheExtreme | Sep 20, 2018

Um, don't know. I just know that I see new Chrysler Pacifica minivans everywhere. Somebody must be buying 'em.

@Longboat
8 plugs in 11 minutes. Seems you had it down pat.
My experience for a V8 was in a 1970 MustMach1 351Cleveland. My brothers. That was the engine with big block heads. That sure was a pain and no where near 11minutes. Seems as a 16yr old, my brother had me doing all the gofer work, but I learned a ton. He even put Hooker Headers on it and had me replacing exhaust gaskets for him because my hands were smaller, and it was always blowing gaskets.

The only thing I remember timing is 3hrs to pull my B2000 trany, and 4hrs to reinstall a rebuilt. Because I did it 4 times in 320kmiles. That Cleveland engine was so close to the shock towers that I can see why it had to go through major mods to get the hemi BOSS 429 to fit. But the cake goes to pulling my dad's 62 Ford Falcon. That 3 speed manual was SO LIGHT!

@All. Toledo plant journalism. Yah, seems written quite loosely, that from the get go, I thought this Dakota is going to be another long wait. Just like the Ranger. It seems as if that too has gotten long in the tooth. But Frontier takes the longest tooth prize.

Off topic: If Tesla came out with a pickup, they'd all suddenly be scrambling. But now we all too know to pad Elon's announcements by 2 years, but that's no less than what we have to pad for Ranger, Frontier, Jeep Truck, Hyundai.....

@papajim--I am not that familiar with dealers in Florida but there are not many dealers in Cincinnati, NKY, or Southeastern IN that stock many work trim full size trucks or even midsize work trim. You see them every once in a while but most of the new trucks on the dealer lots are 4x4 crew cabs. You can find some Base and WT Colorados but at most a dealer would have 2 or 3 and for the most part 1 at most. Again these dealers are not in Florida and are in the snow belt where 4x4 is used more because of the Winters. Usually the Colorados that are below 20k have been either in more rural parts of Ohio, KY, and IN. This is true for the WT Rams, Silverados, Sierras, and F-150s. Dealers in Cincinnati metropolitan area sell most pickups to suburbanites who don't usually buy work trims but buy trucks that are well equipped because they use them as a family vehicle which is usually a second family vehicle. Few pickups get used to haul or tow and many want the 4 wheel drive for the snow. Don't have to worry about snow in Florida unless it is a freak weather pattern.

If you ask most people who buy a truck for their family they would rather have a crew cab with more than the base options. Not as important to buy a full size truck that is the same price or less expensive if it lacks the extra options. Those that want a work truck would be more interested in comparing the price difference of a midsize versus half ton truck. Those who want a truck for their family would buy a full size crew cab not so much on price but having the extra cab room that a full size would offer. When you are spending 30k or more for a vehicle and you are for the most part leasing it or getting a loan the extra amount per month is not a major determining factor unless you simply cannot afford it. You buy what you want because you are going to spend a lot of money anyway. If you want a fully loaded midsize crew cab pickup with 4 wheel drive then you want a midsize not a full size and the same is true if you want a full size and not a midsize.

Jeff you made a blizzard of statements without any citation apart from your own observances in the Ohio River valley.

I don't doubt you at all but I live in America's third most populated state and I can tell you that trucks are HUGE here. Every kind.

2022 MID SIZE SALES TOP 5:

1. RAM DAKOTA
2. TOYOTA TACOMA
3. CHEVY COLORADO
4. NISSAN FRONTIER
5. FORD RANGER

GUTS

GLORY

SOON TO BE THE SALES LEADER

CLASS LEADING RAM DAKOTA

@hemi rampage

If Fiat is ready to devote reasonable shop-floor resources to the Dakota then I'm onboard with your comment. A Dakota that enters the market next year (or even 2020) will be basically a clean sheet design, instead of all the warmed-over stuff that Ford, GM and Toyota are sending our way.

Surely by then Nissan will have a significant update or even a full remodel of the Frontier in the showrooms, but I'm always prepared for Nissan to screw it up somehow.

By 2022 the GM twins and the Ranger will truly be ancient designs, not to mention the lowly Tacoma. I have no confidence that Toyota does anything at all for their poor old midsizer, apart maybe from some decals and paint schemes.

Good chance that the Dakota will just have the same engine options as found in the Jeep JL (and likely Scrambler). Those will be the 2.0 turbo four, the 3.6L V6 and the 3.0 diesel. It is still a question of whether they will offer both the base 3.6L and the eTorque 3.6L, but if they offer only one, it will be the eTorque.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dakota (or whatever it will be named) isn't just a Scrambler (or whatever the Jeep truck will be named) with different sheetmetal.

Aside from the Scrambler/Dakota twins, I expect FCA to then bring in the little unibody Brazilian-type trucks a couple years later. They should call these 750 trucks, being roughly half the size of a 1500 (IIRC, one of them is already designated a 700).

@papajim--Your response did not make any sense. I would consider a crew cab pickup with 4 wheel drive to be a truck even if it has heated seats. I am telling you that most families that have a truck buy one on the bases of 4 doors and 4 wheel drive. If you take out crew cab pickups then you would have a decline in truck sales. I am not counting Seniors or businesses. Trucks are huge here but more of the ones that I have mentioned. The trucks that are the most popular where I live are F-150 crew cabs, Ram crew cabs, Colorado crew cabs, Tacoma crew cabs, and then Silverado. The Colorado crew cabs outnumber the Silverados but the F-150s out number all trucks in my area. Tundras and Titans are not that common--you see them but not in great numbers.

Most commercial landscape companies buy F-250s, F-350's, Ram HDs, and then GM HDs and most of them are crew cabs with 4 wheel drive and yes they are work trucks but far from being stripped. If I lived in Florida, Texas, or one of the other southern states I wouldn't buy a 4 wheel drive or all wheel drive because I would never use it but for snow there is nothing like it. My Isuzu and CRV are 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive but my S-10 is just 2 wheel drive. As for population Ohio ranks as one of the most populated states after California, New York, Texas, and Florida and what I have stated above is very true for most of Ohio. Now if you go to rural areas you will see more of the larger work trucks but you will see a lot of old Ranges, S-10s, Tacomas, Frontiers, and Colorados which are either regular cabs or extended cabs. You will see more of those than you will see aging half tons. Many of the seniors living in rural areas seem to have a preference for aging compact and midsize trucks along with older compact Fords, Chevies, Toyotas, Kias, and Hyundais which are cheaper to buy and maintain especially when many are living on Social Security and limited retirement. Believe me when I tell you this because I have been for the most part over the complete State of Ohio and Kentucky. There is a big difference in what sells in a large urban area and what sells in the rural areas and that is why I stated that the work trim trucks whether they be full size or midsize are more likely to be stocked in dealerships in or close to the rural areas. You are more likely to find a work trim truck near Columbus, OH and outside of Louisville than in Cincinnati and Cleveland. My searches on cars.com show more base and WT trim Colorados, Frontiers, and Tacomas near less populated areas. The dealers will order what they know will sell. Sure the larger dealers in the Cincinnati area get some but with the exception of the mega dealers like Jeff Wyler they for the most part don't order them unless there is a fleet order and then maybe they order 1 or 2 more. My handyman just got a 2018 F-250 regular cab with 4 wheel drive to replace his aging and rusted out 2004 crew cab F-250 and found one at a nearby dealer but it is a gasser instead of a diesel which he would have had to travel across the state to find. He needed a truck now and because the dealer had ordered fleet trucks it had an extra one to spare. It is white only but then his other truck was white only.

@Jeff S: Where I live in northern Maryland, the situation is the same; the WT model Colorado is exceedingly rare at our Chevy dealerships and they're all 4x4, even though our winters aren't all that extreme, one moderate snowfall and a couple light (less than one inch) most years, with a more extreme winter (2-3 blizzards) about every 5-7 years. That said, 4x4 is the rule, not the exception up here. Conversely, the ZR2 trim is also relatively rare while LT seems to be the most prevalent. At the dealership where I bought my Z71, they didn't have a single base model on the lot, 4x4 or otherwise.

@papajim: On the RAM mid-sizer, clearly they originally intended to use a badge-engineered Asian design, tossed up between the Mitsubishi and an up-sized Nissan model. Since both of those ideas have fallen through the floor--both brands now connected to Peugeot in France--FCA is forced to go clean-sheet and it only makes sense that they base it on the same overall chassis as the Jeep, though I expect a more 'refined' suspension for improved ride while keeping similar strength.

Personally, I'll expect something that has at least some legacy style, though probably adopting Ram's newer grill design, compressed vertically in the same manner the old crosshair grill was compressed. This also suggests only three engine options, I-4 gas, I-4 turbodiesel and V6. I'd also expect to see the 9-speed auto for the gas 4 and V6 and maybe even on the turbodiesel with available 6-speed for both fours. I expect the V6 will be automatic only... at least for the first year or two.

"Aside from the Scrambler/Dakota twins, I expect FCA to then bring in the little unibody Brazilian-type trucks a couple years later. They should call these 750 trucks, being roughly half the size of a 1500 (IIRC, one of them is already designated a 700)." ---- Posted by: Longboat

If only they had brought these in two years ago; I'd probably already be driving one. As it is, they're much too late for me; I'm already committed to a mid-sized, despite the fact I don't like its size.

@Vulpine--Agree about the midsize Ram. I wouldn't expect a completely new design but one that is similar to those you have mentioned and add a split hair grill and you have a Ram. My observations are the same as yours in that we don't get a lot of snow in NKY but the little we get makes 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive the most popular. We have a lot of families where I live so the crew cab pickups whether midsize or full size are the predominate trucks. I myself would not get another crew cab because it is just the wife and I but if I had kids then yes I would definitely get only a crew cab. Rural areas are a different story and then you see a lot of older compact and midsize trucks of all kinds. I forgot to add old Dakotas to my previous list of rural trucks because they are definitely still on the road in various states of condition. Wouldn't be that hard to sell an older compact or midsize truck in those rural areas and those that want them will definitely be willing to pay for them especially with the newer midsize trucks being larger and more expensive beyond the budget of many in rural areas especially the elderly on fixed incomes. For them a 28K new truck whether it be a F-150 or a midsize is just not in their budgets.

@Jeff S

Please don't forget that your region is in the bottom third of the nation economically.

At the other end of the spectrum you've got neighborhoods in Florida, California and Texas where people making under $100k annually are the servants, landscapers and cooks for their better-off neighbors. I'm thinking of N. California particularly, but same is true in Texas and Florida as well.

When the marketing guys at Nissan or GM take the measure of things, they have to consider all of it.

@papajim--You forgot one thing where I live and the rest of those flyover states determined the last Presidential election. You add all those other states together and you have a large market. As you said the car marketers consider the larger states but if they ignore the middle of the country then they will lose a large share of the market. There are enough good jobs in suburban areas in Ohio and Kentucky that justify a market for more expensive consumer goods. We also have 3 large Mercedes Benz dealers one in NKY and 2 in Cincinnati so it is not as poverty stricken as you think. We also have a Lexus and Infinity dealership in NKY which does not exactly cater to those who are poverty level. Sure if you go to the Appalachian area in Eastern KY and OH you will see some real poverty but there is still a lot of prosperity. It just depends on where you are talking about it is much easier to stereotype an area that you are not that familiar with. You have to be able to separate urban areas of larger cities from the rural areas and that is true as well for Texas and California in the remote areas. I have also been in most of Texas since I was raised there and lived 29 years there so I believe I know more about Texas than you do especially since much of my family is still there.

Jeff you always need 3 paragraphs to reply to a simple comment. Don't take my word for it--look it up.

That region is economically in the bottom third. I did not make it up. Talking about the 2016 election is irrelevant. Every voter has but one vote.

Discussing money is entirely different. Those "voters' vote with their bucks. Big difference. That's who the marketers focus on.

@papajim--You have heard of the Electoral College and the outcome of the 2016 Electoral College. One candidate won the popular vote and the other one won the Electoral College? Guess which candidate won the Presidency even though that candidate did not carry 2 of the larger states. That is very relevant. Do you honestly believe that everyone who is from Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana is poverty stricken? You need to get out more.

@papajim--Aren't you from Missouri or Kansas originally and then you moved to Florida? If so I question how much you know about other states or even other countries. Have you ever lived in a major city or metropolitan area? I lived in Houston, TX for 29 years. Is Houston large enough for you? I have also lived 14 years in a rural area in NKY. I have seen a lot. I also currently work with people in metropolitan and rural areas which is a large part of my job. I am not talking about sharing office space but driving out to meet with them in face to face meetings. I am not retired and so I have a much more up to date prospective of what these people are like and how they live which is not one from viewing Fox News or reading magazines and newspapers. Reality is much different than reading about it.

@Papajim: 10 years of a bull market. Let's not forget that almost all of the middle class saw nearly ZERO wage increases in that entire period. Silicon Valley was devastated. I saw empty buildings everywhere in 2010. Now of course, Silicon Valley has bounced back with a ferver I've never seen in my 30 years as a working professional.

@Hemi Rampage
Any chance for a spoiler in that list: Tesla Pickup?
Toyota: #1 selling Hybrid: Prius. Every Prius owner I know loves the car and the 50mpg. Maybe Tacoma is just waiting for the competition to really heat up and then throw a hybrid Tacoma at the market. Why should they offer anything new, they own the midsize market.

Misc: I ran past a work site going on at a school, in San Jose, last week. They've been adding on to the campus for at least a year now. I was amazed at how diverse the parking lot was: Midsize, Fullsize, (both new and used), pre 2000 pickups, SUV's, sedans. San Jose is very Hispanic, and those construction people were predominantly Hispanic, and clearly spending $25k-$60k isn't an absolute necessity for many.

@Papajim So your saying that the marketers are going to listen to the #1 state CA and think about midsize being the new full size because of our congestion.

At one point there were rumors to discontinue the V8 Hemi. Clearly 4's and 6's are the new stable for the new generation who didn't grow up V8. That should help reduce the entire front end, and push the midsize as the new full-size length wise. OK, I'm long in the tooth and a broken record.

@Jeff

Electoral College??? That's far afield!

We were discussing a question of vehicle marketing: I made a reference to the demographics of your area affecting the proper mix that a car dealer might have on the lot, and like clockwork you become hysterical.

I live in a part of Florida that is in the bottom half of the US for per capita income. It's a simple fact, not something to get hysterical about. Take a breath

@Angelo

What in hell are you talking about? Today's Dow Industrials index is 3x bigger and hotter than it was in 2009.

Pension funds, insurance companies and 401K plans own most of that stock. The overwhelming majority of those assets are directly (or indirectly) own by people of average means.

Empty buildings?

Seriously. Silicon Valley has been the epicenter of American economic growth ever since Intel went public damn near fifty years ago. Former almond plantations became the hottest real estate west of Manhattan.

Don't be silly.

@papajim--No, you are hysterical. You assumed that where I live is a poverty stricken area. I agree that much of Kentucky and Ohio have areas of poverty but to assume an entire state is such is absolutely incorrect. The dealer mix of products is different for an urban area which is part of a large metropolitan area than a rural area or a smaller city. The area where I live has gone thru a major transition from a mostly rural area to the fastest growing county in Kentucky. You might ask why this has happened since this is not California, New York, Texas, or Florida. One reason is that if you work in Cincinnati you have a 15 to 30 minute commute, housing that is 50k to 100k less expensive than northern Cincinnati suburbs, and a property tax that is one third of those of the Cincinnati suburbs. There is also Amazon, Proctor and Gamble, Fifth-Third Bank, Kroger, and a few other significant corporations. What once was farm land and horse farms have become housing, businesses, and stores. A dealer in NKY is more likely to stock nicely equipped crew cab pickups, suvs, crossovers, and other such vehicles that a typical suburbanite would buy. Go out a little further where it is still more rural to Carrollton, KY which is about half way from Cincinnati to Louisville and the mix of vehicles change to more work trucks but still 4x4s and all wheel drive. Carrollton is still a mostly rural area with farming but it does have a state park, General Butler, and a beautiful Ohio River view.

So despite everything you've mentioned, the per capital wealth and income of folks in your region puts them in the bottom third of the US, Jeff.

This isn't a shot at their character or decency, it's just a factor in the ways that marketers choose ad campaigns, product mix, etc. Calm down.

I live in Boone County which is the fourth largest county in KY but is the fastest growing and has the second largest per capita income in the state. The property tax on my house is about $2,980 on a house which is over 300k. Not saying that this is the best place in the country to live but I have a 3100 square foot house with a 3 car garage which I have lived in for over 17 years (bought new) 5 minutes away from a major airport and a 25 minute commute. I am not going to retire here but that is very affordable especially when you consider that I live in a planned community with a tennis court, pools, and wooded with walking paths. No too many poor people in my community. I could live in a lot worse places and I have.

@Angelo--We have a couple of Tesla Model S in my neighborhood so it is not as bad as papajim would think. A lot of Mercedes suvs, Buick Encores, Lexuses, and a few other of those luxury vehicles. I probably have the oldest and plainest vehicles in my neighborhood. At least everything I own is paid for.

Jeff your insecurities are showing.

Reciting the benchmarks of your personal success makes you look silly. This whole volley began when I suggested that marketers rely on demographic data to determine product mix. Take a pill.

@Papajim
Yes, I saw my wealth stay tanked from 2008-2013, but I had the luxury to sit on it. 3 of 4 people that I was trying to rent family property to had just walked away from their homes. It was depressing talking to these people. Those people that were lower middle class and walked away from their homes have not bounced back with the 3x Dow improvement. It's a shame because many would of definitely of been able to bounce back. But the sentiment was so bad, that even if they could of made payments to their homes, they didn't feel it was a good investment any longer. I too was laid off during some of that period and felt for those people. I only told them that if they can hold on, Ca property over the long term has done well, but the sentiment for many was that property was no longer a good investment.

Yes empty buildings scattered throughout Si Valley. I could see FOR LEASE signs. I don't have a statistic, but just driving around it seemed like for a 1-2 year period, I saw more and more FOR LEASE signs up. Clearly Intel was in tack. Don't forget about Cisco, I saw them take up a huge chuck of land and make their corporate headquarters there! But we know what ALL stocks did during that period starting around 9/2008. People with work Visa's and master's degrees just left the area. Indian's, college educated in USA, working for Cisco left the area. But like our housing prices bouncing back higher than ever, so has business sentiment and the traffic I'm stuck behind on the days I decide not to peddle to work.

Off topic: A 54 year old lady who has reappeared for running workouts at our track on Tuesday's in Los Gatos, said she could tell when she's coming into the SF bay area because she starts to see Tesla's. She's recovered from Cancer of some sort. Then she said the Tesla pickup track is ugly. I told her that it is just a drawing. A mark up. She said oh. Some other 70 year old lady's were running with us at the track the other week, and I thought, wow I didn't think she was 70. Sorry, I digressed.



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